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TAN Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 17:37:59

For decades, the conflict between Israelis and Arabs has cast a shadow over the region. For Israelis, it has meant living with the fear that their children could get blown up on a bus or by rockets fired at their homes, as well as the pain of knowing that other children in the region are taught to hate them. For Palestinians, it has meant suffering the humiliation of occupation, and never living in a nation of their own. Moreover, this conflict has come with a larger cost the Middle East, as it impedes partnerships that could bring greater security, prosperity, and empowerment to ordinary people.

My Administration has worked with the parties and the international community for over two years to end this conflict, yet expectations have gone unmet. Israeli settlement activity continues. Palestinians have walked away from talks. The world looks at a conflict that has grinded on for decades, and sees a stalemate. Indeed, there are those who argue that with all the change and uncertainty in the region, it is simply not possible to move forward.

I disagree. At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever.

For the Palestinians, efforts to delegitimize Israel will end in failure. Symbolic actions to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won't create an independent state. Palestinian leaders will not achieve peace or prosperity if Hamas insists on a path of terror and rejection. And Palestinians will never realize their independence by denying the right of Israel to exist.

As for Israel, our friendship is rooted deeply in a shared history and shared values. Our commitment to Israel's security is unshakeable. And we will stand against attempts to single it out for criticism in international forums. But precisely because of our friendship, it is important that we tell the truth: the status quo is unsustainable, and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace.

The fact is, a growing number of Palestinians live west of the Jordan River. Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself. A region undergoing profound change will lead to populism in which millions of people - not just a few leaders - must believe peace is possible. The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome. The dream of a Jewish and democratic state cannot be fulfilled with permanent occupation.

Ultimately, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to take action. No peace can be imposed upon them, nor can endless delay make the problem go away. But what America and the international community can do is state frankly what everyone knows: a lasting peace will involve two states for two peoples. Israel as a Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, and the state of Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people; each state enjoying self-determination, mutual recognition, and peace.

So while the core issues of the conflict must be negotiated, the basis of those negotiations is clear: a viable Palestine, and a secure Israel. The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state.

As for security, every state has the right to self-defense, and Israel must be able to defend itself - by itself - against any threat. Provisions must also be robust enough to prevent a resurgence of terrorism; to stop the infiltration of weapons; and to provide effective border security. The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarized state. The duration of this transition period must be agreed, and the effectiveness of security arrangements must be demonstrated.

These principles provide a foundation for negotiations. Palestinians should know the territorial outlines of their state; Israelis should know that their basic security concerns will be met. I know that these steps alone will not resolve this conflict. Two wrenching and emotional issues remain: the future of Jerusalem, and the fate of Palestinian refugees. But moving forward now on the basis of territory and security provides a foundation to resolve those two issues in a way that is just and fair, and that respects the rights and aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians.

Recognizing that negotiations need to begin with the issues of territory and security does not mean that it will be easy to come back to the table. In particular, the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel - how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist. In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question. Meanwhile, the United States, our Quartet partners, and the Arab states will need to continue every effort to get beyond the current impasse.

I recognize how hard this will be. Suspicion and hostility has been passed on for generations, and at times it has hardened. But I'm convinced that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would rather look to the future than be trapped in the past. We see that spirit in the Israeli father whose son was killed by Hamas, who helped start an organization that brought together Israelis and Palestinians who had lost loved ones. He said, "I gradually realized that the only hope for progress was to recognize the face of the conflict." And we see it in the actions of a Palestinian who lost three daughters to Israeli shells in Gaza. "I have the right to feel angry," he said. "So many people were expecting me to hate. My answer to them is I shall not hateLet us hope," he said, "for tomorrow".

That is the choice that must be made - not simply in this conflict, but across the entire region - a choice between hate and hope; between the shackles of the past, and the promise of the future. It's a choice that must be made by leaders and by people, and it's a choice that will define the future of a region that served as the cradle of civilization and a crucible of strife.

For all the challenges that lie ahead, we see many reasons to be hopeful. In Egypt, we see it in the efforts of young people who led protests. In Syria, we see it in the courage of those who brave bullets while chanting, 'peaceful,' 'peaceful.' In Benghazi, a city threatened with destruction, we see it in the courthouse square where people gather to celebrate the freedoms that they had never known. Across the region, those rights that we take for granted are being claimed with joy by those who are prying lose the grip of an iron fist.

For the American people, the scenes of upheaval in the region may be unsettling, but the forces driving it are not unfamiliar. Our own nation was founded through a rebellion against an empire. Our people fought a painful civil war that extended freedom and dignity to those who were enslaved. And I would not be standing here today unless past generations turned to the moral force of non-violence as a way to perfect our union - organizing, marching, and protesting peacefully together to make real those words that declared our nation: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

Those words must guide our response to the change that is transforming the Middle East and North Africa - words which tell us that repression will fail, that tyrants will fall, and that every man and woman is endowed with certain inalienable rights. It will not be easy. There is no straight line to progress, and hardship always accompanies a season of hope. But the United States of America was founded on the belief that people should govern themselves. Now, we cannot hesitate to stand squarely on the side of those who are reaching for their rights, knowing that their success will bring about a world that is more peaceful, more stable, and more just.

Edited By: TAN on May 19th 2011, 22:23:57. Reason: broke up p'graphs
See Original Post
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TAN Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 17:38:52

What a load of rhetorical bullfluff.

But anyways...discuss.
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NukEvil Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 17:46:13

tl;dr
I am a troll. Everything I say must be assumed to be said solely to provoke an exaggerated reaction to the current topic. I fully intend to bring absolutely no substance to any discussion, ongoing or otherwise. Conversing with me is pointless.

Philippines Azkals Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 17:46:19

osama is dead!!! obama killed osama!!!

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 17:47:17

hmm, Obama needs to learn how to make decent paragraphs, or i need a biggers screen.

meh, what do i need to discuss about Israel... da jews are willing to kill to squat there, so da Arabs should just run away from da scarey Jews.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 18:23:11

meh, i see hints in it that the US is going to cut funding to Isreal if they wanna persist in being scarey jews.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 19:11:16

http://www.cbs.gov.il/mifkad/census2008_e.pdf

Israel is a state that is devoted to Jews and their beliefs. I fail to see why the US should be interested in defending a homogenious state. they do not represent a US citizen's definition of what it is to be a free person, so why do we keep funneling billions of dollars towards their cause?
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martian Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 19:56:08

Whatever, the US backs far more oppressive regimes globally.
So does most of the EU.

Google AUC or united fruit company for example..
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:03:32

bah humbug.

i gotta settle for martian because everybody is wondering why the Jews spent decades fighting over land just so they could get sucked up by God and achieve eternal bliss. oh well, maybe i'll be able to inflame somebody next week. probably going to have to put up with the bloody rapture nonsense until people realize that they failed. and it's just a trick to get them to show up in church on Sunday.
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archaic Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:10:29

If history has taught us anything - centuries of antipathy are never going to be changed by words, only violence.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:12:28

Originally posted by archaic:
If history has taught us anything - centuries of antipathy are never going to be changed by words, only violence.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:13:52

Originally posted by archaic:
If history has taught us anything - centuries of antipathy are never going to be changed by words, only violence.


don't see how they can succeed with violence, they've been doing it for centuries...
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ETPlayer Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:14:46

tl;dr

galleri Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:26:37

STFU TAN!


https://gyazo.com/...b3bb28dddf908cdbcfd162513

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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:35:56

Originally posted by galleri:
STFU TAN!


TAN didn't really have much to say about anything Woman, don't get your knockers all in a bunch.
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archaic Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 20:39:34

Originally posted by Dibs Ludicrous:
. . . don't get your knockers all in a bunch.


Now thats something I'd pay to see.
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TAN Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 22:24:28

edited for readability.
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Heston Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 22:58:09

Originally posted by TAN:
What a load of rhetorical bullfluff.

But anyways...discuss.



marquee politics, there will be more about bullfluff to come with the election around the corner. .

what other leaders of nations are posturing on the middle east and africa?
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 23:41:01

man, it's been 60 dang odd years, who shouldn't be sitting down on them dang Israelites telling them to keep their peckers in their pants.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 23:46:30

i'll concede that they might have a right to the land, if they don't have to blow anybody to high heaven to get it.

you do understand that God gets mad and kills a kitten everytime a Jew blows up an Arab child, don't you?
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trumper Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 23:53:14

The presumption is that the US actions should be dictated by (your choice) human rights, history, tendencies for violence, etc. The reality is it's about regional balances of power that affect the future security.

Since we kind of took Iraq out the equation, Iran is largely unchecked. Your two best bets for checking Iran are Turkey and Israel.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 19th 2011, 23:57:51

Iran doesn't need to be checked, nor check-mated, the population isn't willing to go on a Holy War. they are too gawd dang occupied with which sneakers to buy.
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TAN Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 0:20:04

Originally posted by Dibs Ludicrous:
i'll concede that they might have a right to the land...


This is the main problem in the current discourse.

No country has a "right" to exist. "Rights" belong to humans, or say, animals. A country has as much of a "right" to exist as any other inanimate object - does a rock have a "right" to exist? Does pillow have a "right" to exist? What about a cup of coffee?

If we want to apply "rights" of an ancient people to territory, then Mexico has a right to half of America, and Natives have a right to all of America (and Mexico).

Does Mexico demand America acknowledge it's "right" to exist? Do corporations demand unionists recognize their "right" to do business before conducting negotiations with them?

The whole basis of demanding Hamas or anyone recognize a "right to exist" is a clever ploy to just stall negotiations indefinitely. Where does it say ANYWHERE in international law that a country has a "right" to exist?

It's farcical and silly. I'm ashamed that humanity is buying into this sham of an argument.
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NOW3P Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 0:52:44

Words are great, but I'll withhold on holding my breath for anyone to actually follow through on it, or for it to be allowed to work by either side.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 1:07:15

Originally posted by TAN:
Originally posted by Dibs Ludicrous:
i'll concede that they might have a right to the land...


This is the main problem in the current discourse.

No country has a "right" to exist. "Rights" belong to humans, or say, animals. A country has as much of a "right" to exist as any other inanimate object - does a rock have a "right" to exist? Does pillow have a "right" to exist? What about a cup of coffee?

If we want to apply "rights" of an ancient people to territory, then Mexico has a right to half of America, and Natives have a right to all of America (and Mexico).

Does Mexico demand America acknowledge it's "right" to exist? Do corporations demand unionists recognize their "right" to do business before conducting negotiations with them?

The whole basis of demanding Hamas or anyone recognize a "right to exist" is a clever ploy to just stall negotiations indefinitely. Where does it say ANYWHERE in international law that a country has a "right" to exist?

It's farcical and silly. I'm ashamed that humanity is buying into this sham of an argument.


there isn't a land mass on the planet that will permit the Jews to grow anything without proper consent from Mother Gaia.

meh, i don't have a clue what you are talking about... the scarey jews are beating you down. just run away. why's you need to beat them this day? they're a pathetic race that will die out because of their demands on each other. Hi, I'm A Jew And Will Bomb You To Death! Flip Off Ya Non-Aiming Bastage That Needs Cluster Bombs to even come close.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 1:16:42

oh crap, i broke a blind and now everybody is going to be able to see me naked whenever they want to do it. woe is me, half the world will be granted with seeing me naked and sporting a woody... i 1/2 faint in anticipation of their total and complete orgazisms....
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 1:19:23

how the heck am i going to fix that before people go blind....
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Foobooy Evolution Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 1:42:17

See both sides are to blame!!

Hey Palestinians, get a real gov't then try again. Fatwa joined Hamas...gotta love it

Pontius Pirate

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May 20th 2011, 1:48:13

yeah palestinians stop being so democratic

"fatwa" should break off from hummus again
Originally posted by Cerberus:

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NOW3P Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 3:56:07

mmm.....hummus.

Walding Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 4:26:39

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

warlorde Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 5:12:34

in the middle east facebook is used to start revolutions that change world politics as we know it. in the united states facebook is used to let us know what our neighbor ate for dinner.

also TAN types too much

discuss....

ThatDude Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 5:15:51

better get on that dibs

archaic Game profile

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May 20th 2011, 15:01:17

Originally posted by TAN:


No country has a "right" to exist. . . The whole basis of demanding Hamas or anyone recognize a "right to exist" is a clever ploy to just stall negotiations indefinitely. Where does it say ANYWHERE in international law that a country has a "right" to exist?

It's farcical and silly. I'm ashamed that humanity is buying into this sham of an argument.


ummm . . .

http://www.un.org/...cs/2010/gapal1159.doc.htm

by your own logic, Israel kicked all of their neighbors asses in 56, 67, and 73 so its all theirs and they don't have to negotiate with anybody. So the Palestinians are on what amounts to an indian reservations and suddenly everybody thinks that Palestine has a 'right' to a two state solution?

Israel is a bully - it sucks, but it cuts both ways. They have the tanks/jets/nukes (and a winning record) and so they get to do what they want. Right now what they want to do is bully the people that keep trying to exterminate them.
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SMz Game profile

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May 21st 2011, 2:10:21

DL every single comment of what you wrote about Israel or as you rather call them "the jews" is totally BS.
Most ppl in Israel don't give a fluff about religioun.

seriously get a clue man dude , it sounds like u spent your all life in 1 place.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 21st 2011, 9:14:05

LOL, i kinda been wondering about that, because i thought it was a bit rude even for me. my brain is currently tainted with books that were written before the invention of political correctness. well, actually they were written before the current state of Israel was invented.

i don't see it as proper for me to refer to an Israelite as a Jew, and i'll try to avoid making the reference in the future.
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Silent Sentinel Game profile

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May 21st 2011, 9:18:12

Let them all kill each other, and do business with the winner.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 18:44:13

http://www.aipac.org/...ls%20Security%20Essential

why is it important to the US that Israel is the one stable, pro-Western democracy in the region? though i question it's stability a bit, can't be too stable if they needs all kinds of funding to protect themselves from chaos.

http://www.aipac.org/...ue%20Archive/Why%20Israel

and that to me sounds basically like segregation. hmm, must remember to say "Jewish" instead of Jews. i have to try to learn how to deal with living with people of all kinds of different races, creeds, and temperments, but the only way the Jewish people can survive is if they have their own country?

Edited By: Dibs Ludicrous on May 23rd 2011, 18:52:12
See Original Post
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:35:47

Originally posted by SMz:
DL every single comment of what you wrote about Israel or as you rather call them "the jews" is totally BS.
Most ppl in Israel don't give a fluff about religioun.

seriously get a clue man dude , it sounds like u spent your all life in 1 place.


and you need to shutup about that anti-semetic crap. you have no idea how many different kinds of people that i'm required to live around, nor where i've been. what does Israel Security do when people fit a certain profile? done chasing the Nazi's yet?
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TAN Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:39:53

Not gonna get involved in this, but just so everyone is on the same page:

Criticism of Israel =/= anti-Semitism
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:44:21

Originally posted by TAN:
Not gonna get involved in this, but just so everyone is on the same page:

Criticism of Israel =/= anti-Semitism


yeah, i know, i was kinda surprised by the definition of the word when i looked it up, because from what i understood based on context was that it only applied to Jewish people.
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TAN Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:46:25

It does.

But those who use the anti-Semite "card" are always hypocritical, because they have two fundamental conflicting beliefs:

1) Israel is a democracy, composed of Christians, Muslims and Jews.

2) Criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish).

So if the country is so pluralistic, as defenders of Israel always claim, then how is criticizing Israel anti-Semitic? It makes no goddamn sense, along with the rest of their arguments.
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ETPlayer Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:51:07

Just as an statement on semitism and the like, I find it odd that, while a Semite can not only be someone that is Jewish but also Arab (and a few others), saying that someone is anti-semitic refers almost exclusively to the dislike or hatred of Jewish people.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:52:53

no, it doesn't only apply to Jewish people. near as i can recall, the definition stated that both arabs and jewish people were included because it was based on people from a specific region, and not based on their race or religion.
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TAN Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 19:54:19

ETPlayer, there is a justification for that, even though technically, it's spurious.

When the term "anti-Semite" was first coined, it had the aim of specifically referring to one being anti-Jewish, even though it's technically a misnomer.

Thus, through the continued use and widespread matriculation of the word into the English lexicon, it still holds its original meaning, despite not technically being specific enough in its etymology.
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ETPlayer Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 20:00:00

So someone was just retarded. Righto then, no point is trying to ask anything more :~>

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 20:45:46

Originally posted by ETPlayer:
So someone was just retarded. Righto then, no point is trying to ask anything more :~>


was it you? did you just suffer a loss of brain cells or experience some other kind of traumatic event that has slowed you down?

just out of curiosity, is there an endangered species list for humans? what other types of humans warrant being put on a protected list?
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 21:16:05

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

i don't know how to compare this stuff to other types of humans, don't even think that other types of humans are sufficiently defined to even show up on a census. yet, there is a census that guesstimates the Jewish population of the planet. i must have missed something to click on.
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ETPlayer Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 21:30:44

What the fluff are you on about, brain cripple? What I said wasn't directed towards you, and I haven't said a damn thing to you. What I said was to TAN. Now fluff off and troll somewhere else.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 23rd 2011, 21:35:23

Originally posted by ETPlayer:
So someone was just retarded. Righto then, no point is trying to ask anything more :~>


your point was a bit vague, brain cripple. if you want to call TAN a retard you kinda have to do it like this. TAN, you are a retard. he'll probably respond with GTFO FORD, but at least you'll have made a specific accusation.
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