LaFers don't need to respond to this. In fact, I encourage you guys not to.

This is being posted in a separate thread because you guys are either willfully or unintentionally ignoring these particular facts:

MYTH: PDM started the landtrading.

FACT: This is only partially true. One of the hits was a mistake, and the other was from a member who ignored the rules and who was subsequently chastised for it.

-----

MYTH: PDM didn't contact LaF.

FACT: PDM contacted LaF about those 2 hits.

-----

I am at my wit's end seeing you guys keep proliferating these misconceptions.

What we disagree about are the severity of the attacks and the timeline of when they happened.

The first 2 hits and the FA contact about them are established in FACT, and any LaFer can confirm with Hanlong that we contacted him about it.

Also, I am making this post to get my 4 bonus points for the week.

Carry on.

Myth: poop

Fact: enough threads on this ffs.

Myth: no poop

Fact: I farted on a train and the girl next to me said something

What did she say?

Admit it... AT and this game would be super boring without PDM!

Not really...I was tryin to hug a tree in peace!

Are you in LaF? If so that isn't the place for that... LaF has shown that repeatedly that the egos of a few are greater than the netting of the whole. You'd be better off in Monsters, Evo or Omega if you just want to hug trees in peace.

*slaps Detmer* How dare you question my ego!

lol nah Detmer I like the crew in LaF and i'm not going to abandon them because I didn't get my way 1 time. Plus war is fun to ;-)

When LaF gets hit, they retal with SS/PS. When PDM gets hit by single taps and double taps, they retal with nukes and harmful spy ops.

There was no need to contact LaF about those hits, LaF was going to retal them the standard way. Contacting Laf before nuking, that would have been wise.

At least you guys weren't dumb enough to kill Slagpit's country on the alliance server, too. Although I wouldn't call it that, I'd just say its that you only like being bullies when you have the advantage of numbers.

I still like some people in PDM like TAN and Detmer, but the IMP members in PDM should quit this game. IMP has no problem bringing disagreements from one server onto another. Since they've done that leap, I see no problem bringing it to the alliance server where for once, they don't have the advantage of far superior numbers to cover for their lack of skill.

Fortunately, Laf's decision to farm PDM has come despite my criticism on our boards for Laf members getting retalled, and for when our people grab without checking the news and end up overretalling or retalling retals. At the same time, PDM has done harmful spy ops on my country without provocation, and has used nuclear missile retals over grabs (funny, since Titanium told me I would be killed for doing that in primary).

So as much as I'd like to bring the conflict over to the alliance server, I have no say in the matter, and I'm not going to do anything ingame to provoke PDM unless ordered to do so by LaF's leaders. I do have a personal grudge against the IMP members in PDM, but I won't do anything about that grudge except as an untagged.

MYTH: AxA had a naked chick on top of him

FACT: She turned down sex with AxA when already naked.

You contacted LaF about those two hits and still didn't figure out there was no pact?

Titanium is not playing a country in PDM. He self-deleted :P

Not aware of any PDMers doing harmful ops on you or any LaFers. It could have happened, though it wasn't sanctioned or used as part of our retal policy. We polled our members and no one has owned up to it. LaF heads have yet to offer their evidence/reasoning that PDM did harmful ops. Yet I see that thrown around an awful lot as justification for farming us all..set..long...

I can assure you the country that you farmed into the ground with no justification (594) did not do harmful ops on you.

The harmful ops thing, if it happened at all via a PDM country, is just a way for you to spin when you've clearly been the aggressor all..set..long...

LaF is the place for that. I'm a warmonger, and I'm a bit out of place in LaF in that regard. As for the egotistical part, thats why I feel at home in LaF. PDM is too laid back for me. They put up with incompetence too much, and seem to even take pride in their incompetence.

I do think we by and large take pride in the fact that we are laid back and don't stress about the game. Incompetence implies objective and we are completely competent in our only objective of fun.

In reference to the nukes earlier - I told hanlong during the negotiation phase we either wanted our land back or to destroy our land. I never threatened him with nukes or anything but I think it was abundantly clear what steps we were considering.

What bonus post???!!

4 points post...

I'm in Laf and really couldn't care for all of this... i would have been more than happy for the landtrading/retals to have kept on going and eventually worked themselves out. But here we are, like Rockman i will also tow the company line :P

YEAY!

4.1 hours ago

Thank you for posting on the Earth Empires forums this week! You have been granted 4 bonus points!

fact:

PDM contacted me about those 2 hits.

fact:

i never said that was PDM not talking to us for those hits. i said you guys didn't talk to us about LaF's hits on PDM that you were clearly displeased about, and instead took your own actions.

myths:

none



i don't like spreading myths ;)

Hanlong, what are you doing trolling the boards, go back to rebuilding your country dammit :P

Oh and TAN, sorry for posting on your thread when you said for us LAFers to stay away, I made sure to not say anything about the current situation, I just could not pass up the opportunity to scold Hanlong :D

i'm sorry... i'll go back and do my retals in peace then :(

we've seen some successful ops results posted on the boards, but nothing with a bounced op to tie it to PDM specifically. Show us the bounced ops and we can sort out the problem member/s.
And given that we had contacted you over our initial stuff up, simple decency dictates that you should have contacted us about your self centred members actions, and in return made it right. We're not the only ones at fault for lack of communication. Hell, even an insite on boxcar would have been a start.

Watch it, you're entering imags territory!

bonus post

drow you are grasping for straws here i think this time :P in regards to the ops

In the good old days there wouldn't be 3 threads of pissing and moaning but an aggrieved alliance would sack up and give the bully a black eye.

Fs them and get it over with already.

Dagga: watch for a massive landfarm of LaF in about 12-24 hours ;)
I kinda miss Thatguy now... 35k in a day off them :p

You realize that your tag was killed in FFA, because you went on FFA Talk spewing bs about how you were attacked by an IMP country and that country had dropped land. Totally fabricated, but in your warped mind, that's what you believed. You have posted NO evidence of PDM ever doing harmful spy ops to your country. Unless you have a bounced attack with country # I'm going to have to believe you fabricated this too. You can easily take a screenshot of your in game news with the portion that had the harmful spy ops.

Let me rephrase that, you saying that an IMP country attacked you then dropped land and proceeding to send missles at us got you killed.

I am realizing though, how silly it is for us to include harmful ops as legit retals in our retal policy. Missiles = fine, but there's no way to be accountable with harmful ops.

That accusation was totally fabricated, but it was fabricated by IMP, not by me. My accusation was that IMP had countries that were intentionally staying small, and then were grabbing (which is not something one does when their goal is to stay small). I therefore considered their grabs on me to be provocations for war, especially given IMP's treatment of numerous other small tags this set (WTFisFFA, HTM, and xtinct, among others) who were farmed without provocation with the goal of warring/killing them for no reason other than boredom and the desire to be douchebags.

I dropped the land on my countries after I was told I was being hit for what I did in primary.

I don't remember Titanium's exact words to me, but he said something to the effect that him and his friends control the server and determine what retal methods are acceptable, and that nuclear missiles are not an acceptable retal and that I would be killed for retalling with nuclear missiles.

This is seemed to be against the spirit of the rules, which state that primary is an individual server and not a team server, and apparently the moderators agreed with me and deleted him.

Carrying grudges across servers is not against any of the rules or the spirit of the rules (unless you are breaking the rules to take out this grudge, such as running multiple countries in alliance or team, running more than 16 countries in FFA, or working as a team in primary/tourney). However, killing administrator's countries because of their actions as administrators seems to be an attempt to influence the actions of administrators and to discourage them from doing their job properly, which to me does seem worthy of deletion.

However, PDM's conflict with LaF has nothing to do with IMP's conflict with me, slagpit, and the other admins who agreed that Titanium should be deleted.

I do not have proof that the harmful spy ops done on me were done by PDM, but I was told by LaF leaders that matching up timestamps they think they know who did it to me. I did not catch the person that did spy ops on me, even though I had over 600k spies the 2nd time he or she did a few commit espionage on me.

But despite my grudge against IMP, I will not do anything on the alliance server against another alliance without the permission from my alliance leaders.

But I would like to see IMP members on the alliance server attack the administrators countries, because I believe that attempting to punish the administrators in game for doing their jobs is an attempt to dissuade administrators from doing their jobs, and thus would be an offense that would require deletion. And I would love to see more IMP members get deleted and hopefully quit this game and never come back.

I'm seriously disappointed in PDM's spinning while playing it off as if they aren't spinning :(

do the talking in-game if you weren't willing to do it in private prior to the issue going out of bounds.

PDM isn't spinning Pang. All LaF has done is show me that I should have handled the FA matters in public rather than doing it privately with hanlong. Then all these myths about lack of communication and inappropriate timelines would be shown to be false.

*facepalm*

nothing proves that you didn't do all your FA on AT like doing all ongoing FA on AT :p

You guys need to sort this out and trading barbs back and forth via the forums isn't going to get that done for either alliance...

but in all honesty, even if it's not your intention, I'm seeing these threads and seeing PDM spinning just as much if not more than LaF is. Neither alliance has the high ground on that front :p

Exactly, and that is why I won't do it in private next time...I thought hanlong was going to be reasonably... he allegedly was with Sanct... I am not sure why it took him more than two days

I contact hanlong with our stance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Detmer
To: hanlong
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 18th, 01:51
Message Body:
How are they undermining your agenda if you had us listed as free for grabs? We still have you listed as friends but honestly I don't know if we want to formalize things if the result is just you guys doing your early techer grab and jump and getting away with it, again. If our guys can get our land back, or if you aren't going to be unhappy if we destroy the land, then we'd be happy to formalize an equitable relationship. We're just tired of being screwed over by this very same tactic. Had we been aware we had to watch out for you guys we could have prepared for it like we used to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hanlong replies ignoring what we actually want and trying to some how make me think that two grabs against them - one of which I made FA contact about, somehow implies that we didn't have them in the embassy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: hanlong
To: Detmer
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 18th, 02:11
Message Body:
then the answer is a long term pact no?

not a one or two reset pact. i'm assuming you listed us free for grabs because we received two unprovoked too. i'm pretty sure it was not set on ur side also, unless they were undermining you also ;P

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I reply

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Detmer
To: hanlong
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 18th, 02:17
Message Body:
We grabbed you twice and the second time I contacted you asking for only L:L (as our pact terms had been higher) since it the guy posted acknowledging he made a mistake. That is very unlike the mass farming that you guys have put on us. If we even up here then I am happy to sign a long-term auto-renew pact that exists until actively terminated.

The first person has been grabbing tons of allies and I would say yes, is undermining what I am doing but since it is only one person it is easy to leave him out to dry for everyone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then 15 hours later one of my guys fires a nuke. (hanlong never mentions it)

To save time here is a string of replied messages where hanlong allegedly sets us to DNH but we keep getting hit... one of our guys violates the DNH and I offer for them to farm and kill him as they wish (aka I bent over).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Detmer
To: hanlong
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 19th, 05:13
Message Body:
You are right - two of them (#449) are retals. You are of course welcome to retal and as noted before #449 has been violating pacts all round. If he grabs you again you're welcome to farm and kill him. As for the other hits though...

From: hanlong
To: Detmer
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 17th, 22:24
Message Body:
i set you to DNH right now, but you want to sign a pact so we can make this official?



Feb 18/11 2:27:16 AM SS old golden age (#598) (LaF) If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) (Paradigm) 320 A (+355 A)
Feb 18/11 2:20:48 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) T34 FTW (#359) (Paradigm) 453 A (+480 A)

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
huh? i set you on DNH on the 18th game time according to the boxcar records.

Feb 18/11 10:15:18 AM PS The untouchables (#610) (LaF) Dont tanks me (#449) (Paradigm) 1215 A (+452 A)

is the only hit i see after that time, and that's a retal.

can you explain to me what hits you are talking about? i hope we are still able to retal ;)

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
I appreciate that you are being reasonable however your members have hit us four times since we were set to DNH. Unless your next message assures me that everything will be repaid to us then we're just going to take it as you guys as a whole don't actually give a fluff about us and we'll just go back to the status quo of a year and a half ago... I don't mean to give you an ultimatum but honestly we're getting raped and I have no choice but to put my foot down for my members.

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
i set you to DNH right now, but you want to sign a pact so we can make this official?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After I offered up our guy for farming hanlong stopped contacting me... on the 20th my guys started firing nukes. One of their guys took it to such a level that we had to kill him (#36). Everyone other than LaF seems to think no contact was necessary to kill that country.





Actually, it won't get it done for LaF who aspire to netgain but instead will have to deal with constant fluff from us round after round.



There is no spin from PDM. You saying there is spin does not make it true.


Edit: added lines to help break things apart

I dunno man... i'm not going to read through the whole chain of notes, because it looks really confusing to follow who is saying what, and I really don't care that much.

I wasn't involved in this issue, I haven't done much of anything for LaF other than answering a few legacy/site questions since I left. But I've been following the issue through the news, as I was getting ready to grab a PDM'er or two from the tag I'm playing in (because your countries were not well defended, had lots of land and apparently like to trade hits), and it looked as though PDM was far from an innocent victim here, like you are trying to claim :p

As for me saying theres spin doesn't make it true: just because you say the things you're saying doesn't make it true either. Maybe that's the point I'm trying to make to you. You're looking at this through rose coloured glasses at best, so maybe you should stop trying to claim you're the most "balanced" on this issue. Your posts don't match that stance.

Just call it a case of policies not aligning, issues escalating and alliances stepping up their responses. That's what it looks like, and the news certainly backs that point up.

I like PDM, but I don't like this side of PDM :(
To hark back to something I used to state when I was dealing with PDM; it's the culture of "it's everyone's fault but ours" that has lead PDM into a lot of bad circumstances.

Pang, you're missing the point.

This thread isn't about whose fault this is. It's about 2 misconceptions that I've seen LaFers post about. These misconceptions are flat out wrong, and I wanted to set the record straight.

If you think this thread is "spin," that is because you don't even have all the facts at your fingertips. Just ask Hanlong d00d.

alright, well I guess that's fair if they are trying to claim the exact opposite of that.... maybe not the most tactful way, but meh...

This does really feel like one of those issues where it's mainly about the semantics and trying to claim some kind of moral high ground, which is always a crappy debate that only makes the underlying issues worse

and I say that having participated in lots :p
especially with PDM! :p

that was 10 days ago. Where were you guys after that fluff happened? Oh yah.. ignoring us ;)

You have to contact us for us to ignore you!

SoF + LaF vs. Collab/Evo/NM/PDM

i'm down :P

I'm honestly not seeing that much spin from PDM in this thread. I think the biggest thing I saw is that Pang couldn't be bothered to read the messages and obviously had made up his mind already. I think that's the issue that PDM is trying to rectify by showing that the things people keep saying are false.

PDM does tend to be a little landgrab happy, and usually not even to their own benefit, but with the farming that LaF was doing, I'd say they have more of a reason to spin than PDM, and they will need to be prepared for the consequences.

double post

The dawg is down wit it...

Thomas if it happens WOF will police for everyone.

pang: I'm happy to land trade reasonable grabbing in the classic style of single tap and retal here and there :D

weee

Pies LaF and PDM