I find it funny that we are blamed for not "controlling" our members, but when it comes to paying you guys back for that, you can't even control your own.

Ironic, isn't it?

Until your members learn how to take ONLY what they are owed, you won't get a penny for any other country this set.

Reps are still on for the other ones next set.

So to all the LaFers who are losing out, blame your fellow members who felt privileged to PS and take over 1k acres when they are owed 500 acres in compensation. This happened more than once.

Paradigm considers the land owed to LaF simply that -- land owed.

They are not considered retals, but repatriation of land. I thus find it sad your members decided to abuse our generosity.

So sorry, all remaining reps for *this* set are cancelled. We are buying back up and cancelling pacts.

Good luck with the rest of the set, and my apologies to those adversely affected by this.

Isn't it just a matter of reaching the point where

Total acres owed = Total acres taken?

Yes and no.

From an alliance perspective, yes. Land owed = Land Taken

But for the individuals in that alliance, that is not the case obviously. Good leaders will make sure that the victim is compensated and not just the victim's alliance.

So some of these members that have been taking PS's despite being warned not to have just ruined it for everyone else. Congrats.

I'm not an official LaF spokesperson in any way, I'm just looking for the reasoning behind it.

Is it so that total land taken is still less than total land owed, or does total land taken now exceed the total amount owed.

In the case that total land taken is still less, the reasoning for cancelling reps is that PDM does not like the distribution of reps internally in LaF?

No, that is not the reason. I am cancelling the reps because individual LaF members feel they can abuse what we owe them and get away with it...and I'm tired of going back to your leaders with every little problem.

Basically, I warned Parallax many times that this was land repatriation and not retals. He understood and said he would inform his members thus. I also told him that if his members felt they couldn't get *only* 100% l:l from attacks, then we would send them compensation instead.

What is the difference between land repatriation and retals? Well retals are just that--retaliations for attacks.

Land repatriation is willingly giving land back that was unlawfully taken. You are not retalling anything as the country that did the hits is dead. You are simply just getting your land back from an alternate means.

Thus, the standard LaF policy of "PS-only" does not apply here. Some of your members abused this by taking PS's on large countries when they are owed only 500 acres. Some took up to 2,000 acres.

That is the rationale behind cancelling the reps -- rogue members abusing the agreement.

Ok, so you're saying that this land repatriation applies to the specific countries rather than the alliance as a whole?

Machwell - yes.

I offered reps and asked Para to make me a list, and he sent me a list of countries and the acres owed to each one.

Some of these countries were only owed like 500 acres, but felt they could take 1k+ acre PS's.

If they can't hit responsibly, what guarantee do we have that the rest of you can hit responsibly? We even dropped defense to let you guys get your land back.

Sorry if this was trolling, I was looking for the reasoning behind the decision.

The title sais reps. Reps can both be alliance and country specific. Sometimes the distribution of the total amount of the reps is at the discretion of the allianced owed.

I figured this was the reasoning, and now I've got it clarified and I know, thanks TAN.

By the way, I've been accused of not doing enough to quell the "environment" in PDM that leads to LaF resentment.

If you want to see an example of where this resentment comes from, look no further than this. My members who *voluntarily* offered reps are absolutely incensed about this.

For the record, here are the offending hits:

May 18/10 9:49:24 PM PS Grinchville (#620) (LaF) PDMs50th (#41) (PDM50) 1175 A (+598 A)

-->#620 owed 517 acres

May 19/10 2:46:59 AM PS Daisings Private Pank (#391) (LaF) PDMs50th (#41) (PDM50) 1390 A (+640 A)

-->#391 owed 538 acres

And finally, to pre-empt any accusations that we are just trying to get out of paying reps...

We just got out of a war, so we can't finish with any decent NWs. We aren't planning on warring anyone else.

We can easily pay off all the reps. It is the principle that is the issue here. Reps were offered in good faith, and that trust was abused.

However, we still plan on paying the reps off next set for those who chose to defer.

Kudos to #349 for sticking to the agreement.

LaF this isn't land owned + interest

you don't get extra

*sighs* LaF can do no wrong it seems

I don't give a crap if your member's sets are ruined so were oursl your members need to stop fluffing, Jesus Christ Pang.

Your members are the biggest bunch of babies I have seen in this game.

We couldn't "control" 1 member, you guys can't control several. Since we are all whineing here, I want my 13million net country back *cries* my set was ruined *cries* wahh wahh wahh. Who the hell cares really. It is not hard to get a top 50 finish in an alliancel like yours in a low player game like this

I no longer care. It shows that leaders in this game only care about themselves.

NA's ignorant multi-changing at a whim retal policy, LaF's fluffing over reps then getting more than they deserve, and Pang being a farking loudmouth showing his administrative voice which should be kept silent on INGAME POLITICS. In my opinion, when an administrators alliance is involved in something, he should keep his mouth shut, not FLAME away.

I for one, WON'T be playing next set, the politics of this game suck, nobody can control their members (or try to). I want a fun game, not a game where I have to be stressed that i will either be killed or have to pay reps (MORE then is required it seems)

I want to be able to landgrab without other players moaning, it is stupid and childish to whine about a damn game, makes you look like a child.

yea...pdm are the bad guys...yup...the other alliances did nothing wrong...yup..

Finally because of this, many members in pdm may not be back, and if pdm dissapears, whatever reps you are owed could dissapear as well along with even more players for this game. Most of the members in PDM this set, were LONG retired leaders and members from YEARS past (like myself) and angering them on their first set back won't benift this game or your ignorant reps

lol reps have never been about individual countries since the alliance can reserve the right to distrute reps as it sees fit, if one member takes more, it means another gets less, it should be members within laf complaining more than pdm heh

SS, when you're speaking out loud, do you end every statement with meh or heh, or is that part of your uber-aloof online persona? j/w

SolidSnake - No one cares about your opinion.

lol meh heh

lol.
Is PDM disbanding next set?

we were considering it based on lack of interest in the game, but our interest has been revived (pang will be here shortly to take credit)

i really need to stop posting here... obviously i didn't learn anything about this board/community from years past.

wow i'm really disappointed in you TAN

first off for simply coming to AT to get more attention to an issue that you and i have spent time working on it private, that's just lame

also i agreed to do what i could with my members and IF they got close to 100% L:L would instruct them to take SS and not PS

secondly even if those hits weren't PS they would have been about 783 acres and 926 acres, so we would be stuck with the same solution that more was taken IN WHICH CASE you would come to me and i would have to readjust other members retals as to not go over the total agreed to its really just that simple

disappointing but unsurprising :(

Well guess what? Your whole alliance is disappointing.

I warned you a dozen times not to pull this crap off.

I warned you insite. I warned Gains via ICQ.

I said ONLY 100% land:land, I never said 100% land:land or 1 retal, whichever is first.

What part of 100% land:land do you not understand? You get what you lost, ONLY. You guys knew damn well what you were doing and took PS's intentionally to get the most land.

Your greed is absolutely appalling.

you didn't respond to any thing in my post what so ever

I did respond to everything in your post, except for why I came on AT.

I'm am going back to not responding on AT

this is FR/FA stuff that should be dealt with privately

ya.. take it off the boards guys.... this, of all things, is something that should most definitely be handled in private.

PDM isn't paying for the lost production, the opportunity cost of the turns LaF used to kill the suicider, the blown stock to buy military, the military carrying cost thereafter, etc, etc, etc...

I don't know why you're complaining when LaF did most of the dirty work to kill someone who should have been PDM's problem and isn't billing for it.

10 bucks on LaF warring PDM sometime within the next 3 months.

any takers? TAN?

Heh. They can war us if they want, but if they war us next set, they won't be getting those reps. Or I guess they could as soon as they got paid, but if they did that, would be a big political blow to LaF.



We're not pacted, so you're damn right. You make it sound like you were doing us a favor when in fact we're not obligated to give you anything at all that is binding.



What do you want, a cookie? You killed the guy who was suiciding on you. If anything, you were too slow to do it and you willfully ignored my advice to do it with all haste.

Can't blame me for not trying--I was looking for turns to kill him and lost sleep doing it. Even if we had enough turns for a full KR, thatguy was online anyways and ready to wall. Instead of being a jerk by saying we didn't try, you can ask SOL how I dropped by every hour or so to see if anyone would help us kill him.

Anyways, I am communicating in private with Parallax.

Yes, I came to whine on AT, but I also sent him an insite message whining at the same time.

TAN, stop acting like it isn't PDM's fault this happened... he suicided FROM your tag, he is your responsibility.

LaF was just netting in peace, wehad you on DNH because of your war and we were just sitting there, minding our own business entirely.

I won't flame more until you and para work something out.... but seriously, you need to re-examine your beliefs, because you still don't seem to understand your role and responsibility in this matter. It's not an issue of "oh, he suicided laf... that's laf's problem now!" which is the message I have been hearing from PDM since day 1. This is an issue that - at most - should be handled equally by both parties. When other suiciders hit LaF in the past, we NEVER have this kind of issue with their tags. This is a unique situation that seems to always happen with PDM, where their members suicide FROM the tag and PDM seems to feel that they don't have to make it right.

I encourage you guys to do everything in your power to make things right with LaF, because your attitude is beyond appalling, tan.

Huh?

We already claimed responsibility and are paying the reps.

We also claimed responsibility with the last suicider who hit LaF.

I honestly don't know why you keep disparaging PDM by saying we aren't claiming responsibility for this suicider. You have 0% supporting evidence to make such a claim.

The reasons why stuff gets cancelled is because of irresponsible LaF behavior in one form or another and is a completely separate issue of responsibility.

I never said PDM isn't responsible for that suicider.

that says to me you're not willing to make it right, and that is my core argument. LaF gets hosed on this issue, and you're still complaining about what little you do need to pay, when LaF lost WAY more than what you agreed to pay -- and then you reneged on it anyways.



Again,it shouldn't be LaF's responsibility to kill rogue PDM members... it should be PDM's.
Telling us we did it to slow when you did nothing at all is, again, appalling. It takes some time to schedule a warchat... why didn't PDM run it in any of their ongoing warchats? I think there was a total of about 20 hits from PDM, all before he bought defense.

Your recent posts don't align with your last one, TAN... you've pushed this issue onto LaF and told us to deal with it from day 1, and then told us you won't help us make it right, leaving LaF with some major net losses from this issue.

This issue should not have happened in the first place. Don't act like LaF is the bad guy here. We were just playing in peace and not bothering anyone in PDM, letting you guys enjoy your war. We didn't want this to happen, but we're looking at working through it despite the numerous roadblocks thrown up by PDM...

like I said though, I don't want to flame you while this is an ongoing issue again... so I'd suggest working it out with para and stop trying to spin this issue in PDM's favour. This is an issue that leaves egg on PDM's face...

LMAO just go to war fluff reps

if we felt it was worth fighting over, we would :p
It's not though...

I have complete confidence in Para and TAN to work something out that's mutually agreeable. I just hope that everyone abides by it.

Quit whining and do something about it.

No, your core argument is that PDM isn't accepting responsibility for the suicider, and that is wrong. Why do you think LaF is getting reps? I am saying we're not obligated to give you everything I gave you--including 125% land.

We're not pacted, so I could care less if you lost more than you're gaining. The simple fact of the matter is, we are responsible and we are being more fair than we have to be.




Again, I tried arranging something, but sometimes it just doesn't work out. I lost sleep looking for turns when I had work the next morning.




Nothing at all? Go check the news of #307 and tell me who started hitting first. Now stop being a broken-record troll and give credit where credit is due rather than hording it all--like your land--for yourselves.




Excuse me if I don't weep for your losses. As I said, I am giving LaF more than it deserves in reps given we are UNPACTED.




Agreed, it shouldn't have happened. But cut the crap and stop laying collective blame on the entire alliance as if we could have predicted what happened. I try my best to prevent idiots from suiciding on LaF (or anybody), and if you don't believe me, well I don't know what else to tell you.

lmmfao @ this thread!!!


Whatta buncha babies!

All I've been saying is that it shouldn't be up to LaF to absorb the losses, and PDM thinks it should be....
A PDM member wronged us and pdm thinks it's ok to leave us with less than we had before their guy went rogue....

we just want to get back to parity, we're NOT trying to come out ahead. That is the core argument... PDM thinks we're being unfair, well, how fair is it that a member of your tag hurt the resets of between 8 and 15 of our members? And required several others to blow stock to kill him? How is it then fair to leave it so that we end up being down acres, stock and wasted turns?

I didn't really read TAN's last post except for the last line since it's pointless to keep debating with him... I'm not trying to flame, I'd just like you guys to understand our viewpoint... I clearly understand yours... I just don't agree with it.

pdm has made it clear where they stand on this issue, and that is to pay back what THEY perceive as fair which leaves LaF holding the bag for massive losses that were caused by their member. That's just the mathematical truth of the two viewpoints, no spin. They cite "no pact" as the reason to not pay in full for what we lost... well, there is still honour to pay for the damage a member causes and clean up the mess. Camelot was all about honour, and I thought they were a core part of PDM's leadership, so I'm a little surprised by the reaction of some (Balin)

I still hope and expect that TAN and Para can work something out....

and don't take this post as flaming, as it's certainly not meant to be.

All I hear is crying.

Is it fair that the rest of the PDMers who are just as innocent as the LaFers who got hit to have to foot the bill?

Clearly it isn't, but this isn't about what's fair. It's about responsibility, which is fine. We are responsible.

Thus, you are getting compensated.

Ia m demanding reps from lag and pdm based on 4 valid points

1. I read this entire thread on my iPod and now my eyes hurt and I am having to battle the auto type feature to make this post. 1bill

2. Me and tan were supposed to 1v1 oop but he got mass fa oop to try to kill the suicider, and still wasnt in range. For that nubishness, 500mill

3. Laf has ALWAYS demanded outrageous reps, I know because I generally pay na reps personally. Para knows, earlier this set I let them take a retal on my country, a 200 acre retal was taken at around 4000 acre ps. I will accept my 3500 acres bact now that I see laf whine when the tables are turned


4. Reading this thread makes me think I'm back at home dealing with my 9 month old son, with all the crying going on. I come to wort and read this forum to get away from that crap, not to rehash it. 500mill


So in conclusion, pay me my 2bill and 3500 acres, you 2 can devise it however you wish. Pay it, man up, and stop acting all butthurt. Both sides are at fault here. Lad is WAY too demanding on a UNPACTED, wartorn, tiny alliance. And pdm is being too butthurt when the entire server knows how insane pdm calcs and collects it's reps


Get over it, and if you can't, let me know and I'll run an oiler next set


p.s. This message was brought to you on a iPod touch

ford, if you keep making funny posts like that, i might actually consider your request for reps! :P

and PDM doesn't ask for outstanding reps. our reps policy is very lax, and often times i ask for less or give more than i have to in the name of good relations.

i don't think i've ever really had a problem with any FAs except for SoF the set before we warred, and everytime i talk to LaF. :P

I understand that there are many quality members in PDM who get hosed by this, but remember that LaFfers got hosed worse. I can't even count the number of times when I was doing FR that I ran my country as a landfarm to pay reps, or sent away my stock to solve FR situations. Why you guys are complaining about it so vigourously in a set where you're fighting a war you've clearly won and has 10 days left sounds more like political posturing than anything else... LaF doesn't want to screw over the good PDM'ers who had nothing to do with this issue, but at the same time, we need to compensate the LaFfers who were affected by this.

If he was an untagged, rogue suicider, LaF would have likely dealt with him before the fact, rather than after the fact, so there is quite a bit of onus on PDM to make this right. You say LaF is unreasonable but I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask for damages which pay us back for what was destroyed by a member of PDM. When someone in LaF does something like this, many LaFfers stand up and say "how can I help make this right?" There's never a shortage of countries willing to help out when we ask them to.

I understand where you're coming from, TAN, and I don't like that your members have to pay for the hits.... but I just want you guys to understand our viewpoint that even with what has been agreed to (is it still agreed to? :p) LaF will still be losing out on this endeavour MUCH more than PDM's members are. So please don't treat us like we're assholes trying to screw PDM over, because we're not.

We've accepted that and we're looking at moving forward.... threads like this & the one that someone made last night trying to flame me after the issue was resolved, as far as I knew, only serve to make things worse.

THIS

After speaking to Parallax insite, the reps are back on but with some conditions (if he accepts, of course), but if you hit how you're supposed to hit, then none of those conditions or penalties will be activated (kind of like how your suicider clause is supposed to work--it's not supposed to be activated).

"So please don't treat us like we're assholes trying to screw PDM over, because we're not." pang when your over hitting the countries it looks that way. just hit the way he ask use ss instead of ps is it that hard?

I am in NA and think you guys should be done with this by now but to me at this point u both look like asshole get it off the boards

or just go to war witch is the best way to deal with crap :)

Paradigm has NO reason to justifiably war LaF.

Why would we war them? Because one of our members suicided? That makes no sense. Because 2 of their members overretaled? Not that big of a deal aside from the principle.

There is no justification. LaF doesn't have one either since we are still paying the reps.

you dont need justification to war just a little hate which both sides seem to have

You have any idea how long it took me to read this and post that in a iPod?


Now that I think about it. Just make it 4bill and we will call it even


Edit on my first post, I ment laf on the outrageous reps part at the end of my post, not pdm
I would edit that post but it's too long and scrolling in a text box on this thing is uber fail