There are two easy ways to discourage countries growing super large.

One of these is to remove the building costs bonus. This bonus is only useful for countries that plan on growing past 40k acres. It is a necessity for anyone landtrading up to or past that size, and its not really useful at all aside from that one usage.

Second is to cut PM regen in half, and to allow military bases to increase your PM regen rate up to double. This would severely weaken the ability of countries to jump off their private market late in the set, something which would especially affect large countries, and would not have nearly as big an effect on more reasonably sized countries. I believe this idea was first suggested by Chaoswind.

why are we discouraging countries from growing super large?

why is it a problem in the first place? it takes time/effort to grow super large. it's not like it grows on trees.

if you are removing the reward for putting more effort in this game, then why even bother playing the game?

I think, in theory, a 25k techer going tmbr would definitely out net an 80k acre farmer going t0mbr under these changes?


and that is just not right.

yah i thought we were talking about nerfing techers since a 30k techer is competitive with a 80k farmer/casher and it takes much more work to get to 80k than 30k.

now it's just going to be dumb with these changes.

hanlong - are you saying it takes effort to landtrade and get superbig?

forgotten - that assumes that the public market is not an option for destocking, and it would depend on how quickly the countries got to their respective landsizes

if an 80k acre country destocks right now, they can jump 36m networth a day off their PM, plus around 40-50m of an initial buyout. They can destock in 4 days and be over 200m networth. if we cut PM regen in half, it will take them 8 days to destock completely on their PM and be over 200m networth. Thats still a pretty fast destock for jumping from 10m to 200m networth. And it can be supplemented by buying military off the public market.

Is it wrong to think an 80k acre country should take 8 days to jump 200m networth instead of 4 days? It strikes me as being too easy to destock on your PM as a huge country. I've done it (on 100k acres actually), and it struck me as way too fast. Taking twice as long to destock would not have changed my strategy much, but it would weaken it slightly, but not quite enough to deter me from still playing that way. It would have given smaller countries a better chance to compete with bigger ones.

next up : all explore countries get 500m bushels for free for not attacking in the whole reset.

so you are promoting all-x over landtrade/bottomfeeding?

that's pretty much what you are implying rockman

i do agree it takes no skill to landtrade. why not cap ghost acres to a hard limit no matter how much land u grab? then it will severely limit landtrading without gimping other legitimate ways to get fat

if you get 80k land you deserve to destock that fast. most people are 20k and destock 1/4th as fast ;P

Hanlong, you know from talking me on IRC what my view of landtrading is.

I want landtrading to be stronger than all-explore but weaker than grabbing. And we both agree that at smaller sizes, grabbing is without a doubt superior to landtrading. It is at larger sizes, normally between 20k and 40k acres, where landtrading overtakes grabbing. It is for that reason that I want the changes directed towards landtrading to be especially geared towards weakening it at larger sizes, while maintaining its value at smaller sizes.

Nobody can ever beat a 30k acres demo techer played properly then.

Also, hanlong posted everything I want to say already :p

Unless tons of people start playing 30k acre techers and tech prices don't stay at nearly 3k for so long like they have this set.

Heck, even if we started seeing tons of all-explore techers, that would drop tech prices and make techer not so overly powerful.

Hopefully all-explore techer will become a more common strategy, to help reign in these tech prices on alliance and FFA. These tech prices are too high.

We need to always consider what this will do to the non-tag servers. For those on primary that can make it to 50k+ acres they have earned it and deserve to reap the full reward. I believe you would be encouraging all explore in these servers more so than it is now.

Most of those who make it to 50k+ acres on individual servers are commie indies that are not reliant upon private market regeneration. And additionally, since they are Commie Indies, they are most likely using the expenses bonus rather than the buildings costs bonus.

And I think these changes are very far from making all-explore anywhere close to as good as grabbing. For people who can grab to 20k to 40k acres, these changes should have little effect on their playing style.

My suggestion was a wide nerfing of PM regen.

Cut PM regen on all countries, but make it so military bases also increase the regen speed...

Hmmm fluff the calcs died with my PC, but it is pretty much that

Regen formula is changed and nerfed, and a mb/land ratio is added to it, this very ratio can double the regen speed.

This is mainly to destroy private market destock on non mbr countries or at the very least nerf it as it is just too damn easy.

This would mean that more people would be forced to go public and in turn would help poor old mbr as a viable strategy to play and not only as a destocking option.

But now I go to sleep.

You can landtrade fine without build costs. and even if you couldnt it woulf still be best to just landtrade to 30k then stock and mbr

Which is what I want, because at lower landsizes like that, grabbing is superior to landtrading.

But you can landtrade with slow growth just fine without the build costs bonus. Maintaining rapid growth well beyond 30k acres will require the build costs bonus.

I also think it would be good for the game, if we made stockers more likely to rely on the public market for military, causing more country to country interaction through the market. A much earlier jump in military prices would be a good thing. There's a good chance that 80k acre countries would be able to destock just as fast as before, but this time they would be reliant upon the public market for half of their military.

The theo 0 military base destock is way too powerful right now.

Pointless suggestion. The goal is to grow as big as possible and getting 40k+ acres is a skill in itself. Either politically or using means available to players that perhaps should not be in the game (hitting your own tag).

A real suggestion would be to remove the ability for people in the same clan tag to hit each other.

i got up to about 30% build cost and 70% decay or something along those lines

half countries with each and i didnt bother doing anything different between the countries, but they did even up a little through stock transferral

only got to 40k before dying, last set i think i had 4 landtraders without build cost and didnt do much different for them either

1/1.8 = 55%

1/1.8 *.7 = 38%

1/1.5 = 66%

1/1.5 *.7 = 46.2%

so currently dict cost is between mono nobuild and mono build, roughly halfway

im thinking if non dict buildcost works currently the likelihood of dict nobuildcost not working is low

but that was with sub optimally low bpt so isnt the best case study either

I think you all are missing the point of my suggestion.

Changing PM regeneration to nerf private market destock is a game changer... Think about it, how easy it is to destock using only the private market? It is just too damn easy.

My suggestion would hurt private market destock on the overrall with would force more people to go public, making demo destock more viable and MBR stronger.

Countries with very high acres could still do a private market destock, but would take twice as long as with the regen formula that we use today.

can't gain land as good as others?

let's buff all explore!

still can't do it?

let's nerf people who can!

sums it up perfectly

landgain is easy, just hit countries which are half of your size and alliance can't get retaller high enuf inside 72hrs cause attacker makes small jumps each day.

an exponential function for productivity starting from a certain size might be nice.

e.g.
starting from the 30.001st acres the productivity for everything above 30k will slowly decrease. so up until 30k you have the full productivity, but afterwards it slowly decreases

Too strong compared to what?

not good.

Building costs increases, so is your risk of getting grabbed. People likes to grab for big acres.

Also when you got grabbed, you lose literally billions of cash just trying to rebuild them after retals.

get defence, problem solved Diez

Been there done that spawn, 25m turrets didn't ward off people who want to hit you just for the big numbers :)

spawn, with your suggestion of exponential function of productivity, then there will be a sweet point between building cost vs potential stock, and I'm pretty sure at that point the game will be boring.

the building costs at big acres takes care of the problem of growing large.

plus the attention it gets.

like i said this is one of the worst serious ideas i've heard because it's pretty much making it even more pointless to try in this game.

making a game where to do well requires no effort = dying game.

i still don't get why are you discouraging people to grow super large? that was my first question and you didn't even answer it. if you want to make this game where everyone is 20k all explore then there's no point in playing this game.

Doubling the time it takes to destock on very large sizes will not make it not worth it to grow to 40k+ acres, it will just force those who grow to 40k+ acres to stop growing a couple days earlier, and it will rightfully weaken a destocking strategy that I know from personal experience is way too powerful.

Taking away the building costs bonus will likely not affect bottomfeeders who grow to 40k acres, it will mainly affect those who expect to landtrade at past 40k. I believe that most of those who get to 40k acres without landtrading do not go for the building costs bonus right now, is that correct?

you double destock time on an 80k acre country, it wouldn't get to 80k acre for one, and you are literally talking about 30 to 50million networth nerf for the potential 80k acre country by my estimate with absolute no proof

at that point, why not just run a techer?

it doesnt really matter

all it changes is the general balance of who jumps when, the sets arnt quite as long as they used to be when everyone uses turns this just kind of shortens them a bit

since if everyone waits too long to jump the market could get bought out completely and you waste stock

the thing that weakens big countries the most imo is food peak, at least compared to techers

compared to non techers delaying stocking and continuing to grab can avoid some food peak

again i ask you. what is the problem about growing past 40k?

and why do we want cashers/farmers to do not as well as 30k demo techers? techers are already stronger, and you want to nerf casher/farmer? wtf?

and a casher would stock at 40k if food wasn't so high (usually around 40k food is at its peak). right now only techers can stock at like 20-30k because they are the only government capable of getting enough cash/turn without being as fat as cashers/farmers and thus they could stock early and get the cheap food.

you grab on out of necessity to stock cheaper food later and not because you can destock quickly. you are focusing on the wrong reason why cashers/farmers get superfat in the first place. i would love to halve my PM regen if in return i can stock $36 food as a casher when i hit 40k. there's no way a 40k casher stocking at food peak prices will even come remotely close to a techer, even without 3k tech prices.

like i said it's literally the dumbest idea i ever heard. you are taking something that's already slightly imbalanced (techers vs casher/farmer in terms of getting t10), and tipping it even further.

and again i still haven't seen a valid argument why we need to encourge less fat countries.

bad idea rockman. If anything countries need to be more rewarded for getting really fat.

Ghost acers is also a huge issue. I think countries gaining massive amounts of acers is fine. Being able to do this by grabbing allies with pacts is horrible. No interaction with others outside of closed nit packs. Those who do not do land grabbing packs end up looking worse if they grab anyone involved in these packs (and it ends up being war alliances who do not do land grabbing packs).

I think skill for land grabbing needs to be brought back to this game.

Ghost acers need to be nerfed so that it is not beneficial to trade land grabbing.

Then we go back to Mehul no one dares to grab deal... you forgot how fluffty that was?

Too powerful compared to what?

THere is always a balance between two objects, it doesnt have to be so cut and dry. I am not suggesting taking them out, just balancing it so its not so beneficial to do land trading.

Theo/no mbr destock is stonger than Demo/no Mbr destock


on exceptional conditions a Demo/public destock is stronger than Theo/non mbr, but honestly that hardly ever happens.

After that what can you honestly say?

Those 2 strategies are already superior to any other type of destock besides full Theo/Demo MBR.

and when you say that Theo/no mbr is vastly superior to demo/no mbr then there is hardly anything to argue.

Take note that my PM regen nerf suggestion is mainly aimed towards the super easy Theo/no mbr destock...

At this moment is just

A) Get Super FAT and stock
B) Convert to Theo
C) Blow from Private Market
TOP 10


fluff that, non mbr Theo shouldn't be that powerful and honestly they hardly ever touch the public market for their destock and still end with absurd networth.

Jiman, blatant Land Trade is weaker than bottomfeed, or successful midfeeds, I don't know who told you it was THAT powerful.

Get 50K acres without getting hit ONCE and you will be top 5 for sure

Too powerful compared to destocking strategies that are dependent on interaction with the public market.

The demo public destock is the general way for top techers to jump (MBR switch is more for reselling than jumping), but at least there's skill and risk involved in the demo public destock.

The theocracy private market destock doesn't take skill and has basically no risk.

I would prefer ghost acres amount to be cut by half too.

I don't agree with the idea that public market interaction is the only part of netting that takes skill and that only midset TMBRs and late demos should be permitted to finish in the top ten.

Cutting PM regen in half for non-MBRs doesn't prevent them from making top 10

Why exactly does the skill, effort, and risk in getting and keeping 50k+ acres not factor into anything?

A wide nerf of PM regen nerfs theo/no mb the most, if you get huge you will still destock faster than anyone else, just not at 14 billion a day on Theo prices, with honestly are too good.

14b a day?

you'll need ~131k acres to do that as a theo no mb.

Rockman... your suggestion of nerfing pm regen... is that coupled with an earlier suggestion that you made about buffing MB effect on pm costs?

Yes Diez that is what I meant, and sure as hell I will destock exactly that in FFA...

I just think is too easy to blow all that cash for theo/no mbr prices.

I could easily destock 100 billons in the leng of a week for theo/no mbr prices, that is stupid, can you honestly think of a better destocking method for me?

I could go demo/half public, but there is RISK of getting less networth if I do that, Theo/no mbr has no risk, and I will end with 230M networth... And it couldn't be easier.

It's basically only viable to net with 131k acres in FFA. I can't see it happening in other servers.

It would be false to say that theo no mb destock is overpowered in most servers, at least. It's hard to balance the needs of different servers perfectly.

Don't think this is limited to FFA...

I can see it not happening in solo servers, but is probably possible even in Team.

and the amount of players able to hit that acreage (if it ever happens)? one or two?

Does that not mean they possess special skills to reach that sort of acreage and deserves to be able to do that destock type?