So I just accidentally explored for 32 turns. That sucked. But I was wondering, at what point is it a good idea for a Commie Indy to start landgrabbing instead of exploring? I usually start attacking sooner but this round I've just been exploring and it seems to be working pretty well, has anyone ever tried *only* exploring?

I explore up to (just under) 1920 acres, then build up all my land, then save turns and explore with all available turns. It usually takes about 40 or so turns and will leave you with 3800+ acres.

I usually start grabbing at that point.

All explore commie might get you an occasional top 10 depending on market conditions, but you won't win doing that.

You are ahead for now, probably because you have spent more turns than grabbing commies.

LG > exploring after 1900 acres (generally).

It's fairly simple explanation. LG takes 2 turns, whereas explore button tops around 50 acres (non-R). So unless, your LG is under 100A., LG!

Thanks for the feedback. Is it really efficient to explore so much without building up? I only explore when acres < BPT in order to maximize production per turn. Also you mentioned other players pwrhaps haven't as many turns... What's the advantage of waiting to play turn? I always play mine as soon as I can. Thanks!

you need to batch explore if you choose to explore.

the reason you batch at 1920 acres is that is where the explore rate drops from 45 to 44 acres. so if you explore 40 turns there is a ~40 acre difference just because of a couple acres at the start.

you always want to batch at the most efficient spot. lets say you are about to batch ~150 turns on 3950 acres. at 3954 acres, you get 26 acres per turn, at 3956 you get 25.

so working with rough numbers, if you optimize your batch, you will use around 6 less turns to get the same land. obviously these are rough numbers and you need to consult the explore rate chart for every batch

http://www.earthempires.com/express/help/in/explore

do some simple maths every batch to find the most efficient starting point, and dtop or gain acres if it is worth it before making a large batch. the explore rates only drop after the batch, so if you do it like this, you get the start rate through all your batch turns. if you do it slowly like yourself, your explore rate drops every time you explore a few turns, and it is really inefficient. especially on a server where you can make 370 turn plus batches. that is a lot of land you are giving away to the explore gods.

first of all, if you go all explore, listen to ford.

it isn't always a question of playing 'slow', but rather playing more efficiently. I have saved a ton of turns in the first 24 hours of this reset, because I refused to sell my turrets for $105 each (which is where they were for a while) Instead I put them up at 150+ and stored turns til they sold. Now I can buy some cheap tech, build up unused land, and store more turns until my next batch of turrets sells.

Doing this, I will be playing more turns with the benefit of indy tech than i would if i was just simply racing to play all my turns.

It doesn't put me in the top 10 right now, but playing this way should put me up there when it matters on Sunday (unless i abandon my country on Friday, which is likely)

Neh neh neh neh neh neh neh neh BUTTMAN!

I'm anti batch xplore-

With the exception of techer, I prefer to explore in increments. Yes, you miss out on land, but by batch explore you miss out on massive amounts of incremental production.

If you ever examined your production closely,. by batch exploring you drop below your 80% max population which actually decreases your production per turn. Check out your indy's production next time you batch explore.

Production isn't the goal when exploring.

True. It's to gain land; but, both objectives are about effeciency of turns. The turns *saved* in block explore is lost in production missed out from in incremental building.

Which is easily offset by less turns needed to get the same land

I also batch explore (at 1920a only) because of target selection.. I don't really hammer the bots as much as others do, grabbing at 2k as opposed to 4k means theres 10+ additional countries I'd have to hit.

You're right the turns become offset- however- the person who built in increments has substaintly more stock.

And significantly less land, meaning in the end he has less production.

You have to look at the whole equation, not just the first half.

Construction costs are significantly higher as well for the player who block explores.

The player block exploring is missing turns to build more CS; however, the player who builds in increments can build extra CSs.

I've actually tested this theory. Since both scenarios are static, you can actually test it.

So have i, over 20 years of playing this game....

To BUTTMAN - Thanks for putting that into perspective; I can see what you mean. I've definitely been selling my stuff for a lot less this round than previous rounds and hadn't thought there was much I could do about it, but that strategy makes sense I'll see if I have the patience to wait it out!

As far as the block vs. incremental explore... it seems like block exploring might be most efficient if you are only planning to explore early when the returns are high then start grabbing, but if you plan to keep exploring the whole game then it's best to do incrementally?

Me & Ford are going to disagree fundamentally on this approach. He's using experience & I'm using math. Block explore is only more beneficial when you're a techer or when you play republic.

To simplify my reasoning.

1920 -> 3840 is a block explore. It takes 42.6 turns to explore an additional 1920 acres.

Using increment explore your explore would decrease as such:
45, 44, 43, 42, 41,....... 26 (3755) If you simply add the lowest number to the highest number & divide by 2, you can get an average explore using the increment method.

45 + 26 = 71 / 2 = 35.5 acres.
Thus it would take 54 turns worth of *explore turns to reach same land amount.

The difference of 11 turns is not worth:
the higher cost of building costs
the loss of production per turn due to population below 80%
the loss of production gained from incremental building along the way.

It's sorta like this: Imagine your same production for 42.6 turns vs the incremental increase which allows you to buy tech each turn, which is basically your production compounding on itself each turn. With block explore, you can't do that.

To put into perspective the difference in building costs:
Building on 1920 acres is 7260 each building.
Building on 3840 acres is 13020 each building, and that's 1920 buildings that you have to pay full price for.

wrong. it isnt linear, the explore rate doesnt drop after a set number of acres every step nor does it require the same number of turns to get from step to step. do you even know how averages work?

you like math a lot, now i suggest you get better at it.


i have to admire you at least on one factor. for as often as you are wrong, you sure still have confidence.

It's an estimation. I can sit here and add every single number & you would still argue your point.

because you seem to think that you are the first person in the history of this game to use math. there have been plenty of people before you that have gone full tryhard and every one of them disagrees with you.

now, you havnt exactly shown a pattern of being correct, so what do you expect me to do? let you feed your random errors to the nubs?

I just added it up manually, and it took exactly 58 turns. So my estimation was 4 off. What's your excuse now?

and 4 more is a 36% error from 11.

im too lazy to check the rest of your brand of math, but you make mistakes like little kids fill diapers. that is my point.

i think it is great you are trying to understand the game better, but make sure you actually understand it before you start telling others what to do.

% is not relative with numbers this small. 54 vs 58 turns. Regardless.. 15 turns doesn't account for the building costs and lost of production from falling below 80% population.

Not when you're dealing with a number of 1900.

So to the original argument: incremental > block explore.

it is relative when you are picking and choosing random numbers to present.

and 14 turns is valuable in any startup. trivializing that is comical. your scope is too small, as usual.

If you read my post it says 'average explore'.

You're also introducing something that we're not even discussing. I never said 14 turns is not valuable in the beginning. If anything that's exactly what I'm emphasizing. By using your turns 2:1 || explore:build ratio, you are using a strategy superior to block explore.

every strat creator in the last 20 years disagrees with you.

thanks for revolutionizing the game!

You can't explain the discrepancy in mathematical terms., only by your 'hunch'. Both scenarios are easily a mappable and require no fancy mathematical forumals. I've mapped out both in laymen terms. The block explore method is beneficial solely for techers and for republics.

Actually, the idea isn't new. It's Xin's. So your statement that every strat creator in the last 20 years disagrees with you is not true.

most creators*

The only other time I could see batch explore being useful is when you plan on exploring the entire set beyond 3800 acres. (And only on the EXPRESS server, since you can store up to 360 turns).

The benefit of non-block explore seems to drop off around 3000-3200 acres.

you like to exist in a static environment, which is fine, unless you are dealing with a game with random factors. you are sitting there acting like you can make the game give you the explore returns you want to go incremental. what happens when your explore returns 35 acres, or 55? do you drop acres? just explore another turn? you cant really go from 45 to 44, because you cant explore 1.4 turns.

your static math doesnt exist ingame, it just doesnt. so you are suggesting someone sit there and explore 2 turns at a time, build, drop acres, and explore some more and repeat? you will waste more than 14 turns doing that i can promise it.

and batches just get more and more important if you are going all-x, especially on a 360 turn server like express. why dont you do the math for a batch from 3800 acres.

You don't drop acres,. because your explores are too small.

When you reference the x-factor of explore. It occurs with block explore too. So I negated both. I actually typed the whole thing manually but the stupid page timed out before I could post it.

I had it going like such:
1920 45 45 (90)
2110 44 44 (88)
2198 ect... all the way down to 3480. It took exactly 58 turns. ( I used 45/44 # based on the explore chart, not just a -1 increment.)

If you calculate the full income of a fully built 3480 farmer (for an example) you cannot pay for the difference in building costs in 14 turns. It would take close to 48 turns to pay for it. (And that's just for building cost.).

3480*5.3*29 = $534876 a turn fully built.

The building cost of 1920 * 13020 = $24,998,400

Can we ban selfie?

having to drop acres only happens once with batches, it happens at every step for incremental if you go over

and at 2110 acres, your explore rate is 42, not 44. not sure what those number are about, unless that is some more celphi math.

Here,. I'll tell you what. I'll make a program which will do the work for you, so you can see it for yourself. I mean you can test it on alpha & see what I'm saying is true. I was just typing quickly to explain how I did it. It does take 58 turns though.

will your program have as many errors as you make on the forums?

This thread is the most informative thread I have read.

Thanks all for your knowledge.

Meh, there are quite a few people playing this game that know what they are doing. Doubtful everyone will agree, like in this thread, but all you have to do is ask for help. There are many different ways to have fun running a country.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, I've finished 2nd with 33m networth, but I've never won.. If I give false info I trust the gurus to correct me, but what I post has worked for me.

Acres: (1920) Increment: (45) + (45) Total land: (2010)
Turn #: 2
Acres: (2010) Increment: (43) + (43) Total land: (2100)
Turn #: 4
Acres: (2100) Increment: (42) + (42) Total land: (2186)
Turn #: 6
Acres: (2186) Increment: (41) + (41) Total land: (2270)
Turn #: 8
Acres: (2270) Increment: (39) + (39) Total land: (2352)
Turn #: 10
Acres: (2352) Increment: (38) + (38) Total land: (2430)
Turn #: 12
Acres: (2430) Increment: (38) + (38) Total land: (2506)
Turn #: 14
Acres: (2506) Increment: (37) + (37) Total land: (2582)
Turn #: 16
Acres: (2582) Increment: (36) + (36) Total land: (2656)
Turn #: 18
Acres: (2656) Increment: (35) + (35) Total land: (2728)
Turn #: 20
Acres: (2728) Increment: (34) + (34) Total land: (2798)
Turn #: 22
Acres: (2798) Increment: (34) + (34) Total land: (2866)
Turn #: 24
Acres: (2866) Increment: (33) + (33) Total land: (2934)
Turn #: 26
Acres: (2934) Increment: (32) + (32) Total land: (3000)
Turn #: 28
Acres: (3000) Increment: (32) + (32) Total land: (3064)
Turn #: 30
Acres: (3064) Increment: (31) + (31) Total land: (3128)
Turn #: 32
Acres: (3128) Increment: (31) + (31) Total land: (3190)
Turn #: 34
Acres: (3190) Increment: (30) + (30) Total land: (3252)
Turn #: 36
Acres: (3252) Increment: (30) + (30) Total land: (3312)
Turn #: 38
Acres: (3312) Increment: (29) + (29) Total land: (3372)
Turn #: 40
Acres: (3372) Increment: (29) + (29) Total land: (3430)
Turn #: 42
Acres: (3430) Increment: (29) + (29) Total land: (3488)
Turn #: 44
Acres: (3488) Increment: (28) + (28) Total land: (3546)
Turn #: 46
Acres: (3546) Increment: (28) + (28) Total land: (3602)
Turn #: 48
Acres: (3602) Increment: (28) + (28) Total land: (3658)
Turn #: 50
Acres: (3658) Increment: (27) + (27) Total land: (3714)
Turn #: 52
Acres: (3714) Increment: (27) + (27) Total land: (3768)
Turn #: 54
Acres: (3768) Increment: (27) + (27) Total land: (3822)
Turn #: 56
Acres: (3822) Increment: (26) + (26) Total land: (3876)
Turn #: 58

Program completed.

package celphi;

public class block_explore {

	public int land = 1920;
	public int tland;
	private int increment = 45;
	int counter = 0;
	
	public int getincrement(){
	for (int i=0; i < 1; i++){
	if (land <= 1920)
		increment = 45;
	else if (land > 1920 && land < 1983)
		increment = 44;
    else if (land > 1984 && land < 2048)
		increment = 43;
	else if (land > 2049 && land < 2117)
		increment = 42;
	else if (land > 2118 && land < 2189)
		increment = 41;
	else if (land > 2190 && land < 2265)
		increment = 40;
	else if (land > 2266 && land < 2345)
		increment = 39;
	else if (land > 2346 && land < 2429)
		increment = 38;
	else if (land > 2430 && land < 2518)
		increment = 37;
	else if (land > 2519 && land < 2612)
		increment = 36;
	else if (land > 2613 && land < 2711)
		increment = 35;
	else if (land > 2712 && land < 2816)
		increment = 34;
	else if (land > 2817 && land < 2928)
		increment = 33;
	else if (land > 2929 && land < 3047)
		increment = 32;
	else if (land > 3048 && land < 3173)
		increment = 31;
	else if (land > 3174 && land < 3308)
		increment = 30;
	else if (land > 3309 && land < 3453)
		increment = 29;
	else if (land > 3454 && land < 3608)
		increment = 28;
	else if (land > 3609 && land < 3774)
		increment = 27;
	else if (land > 3775 && land < 3954)
		increment = 26;
	}
		return increment;
	}
	
	public void setland(){
		tland = land + (2 * increment);
	}
	
	public int gettland(){
		return tland;
	}
	
	public int getland(){
		return land;
	}
	
	
	public void output(){
		
	System.out.printf("Acres: (%s) Increment: (%s) + (%s) Total land: (%s)\n", getland(), getincrement(), getincrement(), gettland());
	land = tland;
	
	counter += 2;
	System.out.println("Turn #: " + counter);
	
	}
}

58 turns as I stated.

And none of that takes into account the random factor that messes with incremental exploring more than batching.... you didn't read any of what I said did you?

Ford vs Celphi is awesome lol.. PS I like you both

@mrford

There's no such thing. The x-factor in explore is the same for block explore or incremental per explore. It's based on each turn spent.

Not if you are trying to not go over a number or reach it in 1 turn.

Which you only have to do once in a batch. You want to do it 20 times.

A block explore of 10 turns is the same x-factor for doing 10 individual explores.

The x-factor isn't the advantage. The advantage (and I hardly call it one) is that you 'lock in' your current explore rate, rather than have it change.