Techers - Earth Empires Forum

Gerdler

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Jan 6th 2020, 10:34:50

Autosell is only for the last 500-1000k tech points and before that tech prices stay higher than the autosell as equilibrium. Its the equilibrium being high that is the issue and that is there because there are 50 bots. Cut it down to 40 maybe? They used to be 35 and it was maybe a bit low but now they have more defences so it will be more common to find bots in low DR than before.

10 bots less mean $5-8B less demand to the tech market per day on the last 2-3 days and that will mean lower prices no matter the autosell.

I think dropping the autosell to 750 wouldn't do any harm tho, but wont solve the imbalance on its own for sure either.

BaDonkaDonks

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452

Jan 6th 2020, 11:38:04

fluffes complaining about techers - boooooring. Galeri, tell your generals not to change a thing.

Rob

Member
1105

Jan 6th 2020, 15:37:46

From what i can see so far, techers are completely overpowered on this server.

The bots are buying way too much tech keeping tech prices way too high. That simultaneously makes techers way too strong and weakens any other strat with the expensive tech.

This is my second set back after a long time, and without knowing much about the dynamics of the current environment with bots and how to identify bots etc, i still managed to break 50m networth easily on my first try as a techer (the set before last), even after making plenty of mistakes (not fully farming bots will multitaps, not reselling at all, wrong destock timing)

I was #50 last set, the rep casher - gonna try commie indy this set to see how that works out, but it does seem like the bots need to be rebalanced to adjust the tech market downwards

Ive looked back for quite a few sets on eestats and market prices seem to always be high for tech

Gerdler

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Jan 6th 2020, 16:46:59

Yeah its been this way for a while. Commie indy is the one strat that can compete with techers some sets.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 6th 2020, 17:50:21

If you want to win express.. play techer.. pretty simply, commie indy is the only strat that may have a chance because bots are buying a lot of military as well

Any other strat doesn't have a chance, especially farmer because there are so many rep farmer bots

Oh well, the only solution I have at my disposal is to not play..

Helmut

Member
201

Jan 6th 2020, 20:23:46

Running a Tech strat is harder, more work,& challenging, than playing a commie indy. Ya gotta resell tech if your going to get in the top 5, that why Dem does well....

Indy & farmer strats, ya just buy tech, push the cash button & sell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZ0sSStW6Y

galleri

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Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
14,333

Jan 6th 2020, 20:27:22

Originally posted by BaDonkaDonks:

fluffes complaining about techers - boooooring. Galeri, tell your generals not to change a thing.

Uh?
Also it is "galleri"
Address me properly 😂😂

<cloud-rasp> It’s real bad
<cloud-rasp> DDOSing my DESTOCK

Kahuna: Ya you just wrote the fkn equation, not helping me at all. Lol n I hated algebra.

BaDonkaDonks

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Jan 6th 2020, 22:01:30

Sorry Gallerrii

galleri

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Jan 6th 2020, 22:17:21

Dammit Bondabonks
lol

<cloud-rasp> It’s real bad
<cloud-rasp> DDOSing my DESTOCK

Kahuna: Ya you just wrote the fkn equation, not helping me at all. Lol n I hated algebra.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 6th 2020, 22:37:07

BaDondaDonker doesn't care that techers have a huge advantage on this server due to the wacky bots

He likes playing techer and finishing top 10 and feeling special about it and doesn't want it to end

Celphi

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Jan 7th 2020, 1:07:43

Originally posted by Hessman123:

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

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Jan 7th 2020, 8:11:08

If enough players play techer it will be good again for cashers and indies.

Celphi

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Jan 7th 2020, 19:17:42

I agree, but you could apply that logic to any strategy Gerdler.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

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Jan 8th 2020, 5:35:08

My point is that the bots are balanced for more than the normal amount of techers and it drives up equilibrium tech prices too far. The amount of tech sold at the auto-sell is just a fraction of the total amounts of tech being created in express and other strategies than techer might benefit nearly as much from auto sell at 1k.

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 14:42:19

21k techer is going to make a mininuim of 7mil a turn based on 1k autosell and around 21mil a turn when tech is at 3k. They make the most early in the set and it allows them to hit the bots early for easy land.

21k farmer is going to make 9.8 mil when food is at 35 (which is basically is entire set) and only after he buys 370k agri tech. (which is the most expensive tech) Has to play delayed and has to get land from a much greater defended bot.

How is this even remotely balanced?

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 8th 2020, 15:11:00

Techer has to make more than farmer, per acre. Being able to play delayed is a benefit not a loss and techer will be unable to play its last 100 or so turns. Its still not balanced tho. Equilibrium prices should be 2-2.5k for it to be balanced (which it actually has been a couple times when Ebert, I and one more big techer each had a decent set at the same time)

Agri is not the most expensive tech, Res/bus generally is at a higher price on bot servers which is a bit stupid too.

Farmer is useless in tournament too. Its partly because of the low turn count its bad as well, too short time to stock and let the prices be high.
The fact that you can save turns and take like 700 turns on the sunday, grabbing to 30k+ acres and buying the tech that techers are fireselling to jump as well as take all the high acre- low DR bots since all the techers and most others have stopped grabbing already is a great benefit to non-techers in express.

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 15:16:38

Perhaps with old system you could do that. You can't grab 30k acres on last day as farmer. The most you get per any grab now is 10% of built buildings. For one, you'd need a crazy amount of oil, two, the bots are averaged around 3-4mil turrets on last day, so you'd spend a crazy amount on jets per atk.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 15:17:21

Plus by waiting until last day,. you can no longer drop those acres. Which is the farmer's greatest advantage.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

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5122

Jan 8th 2020, 16:44:51

No need to do the expensive oil destock when you have 30-40k acres in a 1900 turn reset. The stock is small enough that you can dump it all on private in a few hours of replenishment. The ability to profitably take all turns is a great benefit of casher/farmer/indy. Techers always land at around 100 untaken turns which is about 5% of the turns of the reset.

Doing an oil destock costs .615 barrels per NW beyond the private market cost, and is even as a TMBR more expensive than buying the military from a normally replenishing private market. The reason it is done in 1a and team is that the public(or private) market cant cater such a large demand in those servers, unless jumping very early and thus losing a several days of income in the end, as the stocks in long sets are huge

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 17:39:35

It’s worth it. You’re calculating something wrong.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 17:41:11

The cost of buildings to 30-40k land negates the gains of getting there. Not to mention the target you put on your back getting there in land.

I’m pretty sure I can out net any farmer as a farmer on this server

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 8th 2020, 19:15:29

30k buildings is well worth it in this server as a non-techer.

at 30k acres your build cost is 91500 which means at 11 bushels per farm selling at 36 with taxes has a 246 turn repayment. Add a few tech points(that give you NW) and the jets/oil and missed cashing turns and you can generally grab to about 350 turns from the end. It is certainly not difficult to get to 30k acres by turn 1550. And ideally you do that on Sunday with loads of turns to take in the last few hours.

I have never seen a point to play serious farmers on express except for my land record runs. And for those land record runs I used all my resources to grab late instead of jumping, so I have a good idea of the costs of late grabbing on express. The thing is the DR is lower and the bots are bigger so grabbing is generally not all that expensive.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 8th 2020, 19:19:29

Making oneself a target is obviously a problem. Used to be almost guaranteed to get hit if you pass 30k acres on this server.
Either the climate changed while I was away or last set was a one-off because I forgot GDI and could still net the set out, no ops on me, no missile barrage, no ABs, no topfeeds. Maybe it was just because the usual suspects had new years break or something.

KoHeartsGPA

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Jan 8th 2020, 19:30:34

GDI salesman has been M.I.A lol

Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)

https://youtu.be/...pxFw4?si=mCDXT3t1vmFgn0qn

-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF~SKA=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 20:08:23

Well you're welcomed to put your theories to practice and play farmer to 30k land and play delayed. Let me know what networth you finish with.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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Jan 8th 2020, 20:09:49

3 Python 17 12 acres $30,758,238 HG 2563187

2 sets ago @26k land and bushels never broke 40.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 8th 2020, 20:44:24

Im just here to AB someone 105 23,052 acres $22,668,863

That was my attempt at demo farmer.. that was last set, but I didn't create the country until Thursday 22:00 hrs so I think I missed out on some turns and some bonus

Also I tried to resell tech which didn't go as planned and I ended up with way more tech than I needed.. I could have finished a bit higher but I wasn't anywhere close to touching 40-60 mil NW like I used to every reset as a techer

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 8th 2020, 20:47:43

Originally posted by Celphi:

3 Python 17 12 acres $30,758,238 HG 2563187

2 sets ago @26k land and bushels never broke 40.

This is my only netting farmer ever on express. I played like I described here.
http://www.earthempires.com/express/393/ranks
1 Mugelb bu bfo tu ollama Id na (#88) 38,150 $38,298,207 DG

This is my first land record:
387 4 Try if you dont succeed (#80) 53,281 $28,332,981 DG

Also decent NW

Edit: Btw here is my casher the set before. played the same way
http://www.earthempires.com/express/392/ranks
4 yen iehkci kotd na (#84) 39,024 $38,285,759 IG

Edited By: Gerdler on Jan 8th 2020, 20:51:15
See Original Post

Gerdler

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Jan 8th 2020, 20:54:03

That was not my best casher tho.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 8th 2020, 22:43:33

I'd bet you that your best techer finish is a much higher networth than either the casher or farmer

..It's just the nature of the server and the effect of the bots that makes things uneven and better for techers

Which was the point of the post in the first place

Celphi

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Jan 9th 2020, 0:00:23

Gerdler look at the bots' defense in the set you posted and the set that I played. Night and day differences. The bots were significantly easier to LG back then. The bot code was configured differently on how many units they buy.

You can't effectively do same strategy nowadays esp with the new 10% of build land.

Try getting 30mil+ with farmer now. It's going to require like a great deal of calculating. With techer you can play very sloppy and push 40mil+ without even trying.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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Jan 9th 2020, 0:58:41

There's also some other notable facts:

There were 30 bots during the set you played farmer with an average of $4,161,805 networth.

Whereas the sets nowadays has 50 bots and a average of $5,881,139.06 networth.

That's ~41% more networth in units.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 9th 2020, 5:47:04

Yeah its true defenses were lower but drs were a lot higher.

And hessman we've gone beyond that. Everyone knows techer is better and no one is contending with it. What we are talking about is the optimal way to play a non-techer on this server.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 9th 2020, 14:36:57

Originally posted by Gerdler:

Whats the point, you're not going to win

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 9th 2020, 14:51:23

I won with my only farmer I netgained with but yeah its a lot harder and requires some luck too.

Invictus

Member
404

Jan 9th 2020, 15:21:58

Yeah very lucky and online 24/7, or do like some players and get your own magic market buddy from your clan or inside secret alliance with another player. It's not that difficult folks.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 9th 2020, 15:35:14

Originally posted by Invictus:

Yeah very lucky and online 24/7, or do like some players and get your own magic market buddy from your clan or inside secret alliance with another player. It's not that difficult folks.

That is called cheating

Gerdler

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Jan 9th 2020, 16:06:59

Nah, I didn't work THAT hard for it. I just grabbed a lot of land, built it with farms and cashed turns lol.

Celphi

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Jan 9th 2020, 16:23:38

The set he linked was more than 2 1/2 years ago. EXPRESS was very different back then.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 9th 2020, 16:54:58

lol

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 9th 2020, 16:57:23

Yeah the techer bots didn't jump at the end of the set so NWs were a lot lower. Look at the other bots and you will see its pretty much the same except that we have more bots now than before. :)

Either way its not hard to grab on express now. I got my demo techer to 20k labs by turn 910 last set without working very hard for it or being as active as I have been on some of my tryhard netting attempts. That number is about standard for me and if grabbing was significantly harder I would have noticed it was harder to do that.

The 35 bot days had much higher DR on the bots. You just remember that they had lower def, and the techer bots sure did, and possibly the rainbow bots too, but the changes to farmer casher and indy bots are not all that large, and very much compensated by the fact that we now have like 43% more bots so much more bot land to pick from.

galleri

Game Moderator
Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
14,333

Jan 9th 2020, 18:26:26

Originally posted by Invictus:

Yeah very lucky and online 24/7, or do like some players and get your own magic market buddy from your clan or inside secret alliance with another player. It's not that difficult folks.

Well, I will be watching you...

<cloud-rasp> It’s real bad
<cloud-rasp> DDOSing my DESTOCK

Kahuna: Ya you just wrote the fkn equation, not helping me at all. Lol n I hated algebra.

Celphi

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Jan 9th 2020, 20:24:37

Back then the DR was higher for first 3 days., but on last day you *could* jump up to 30k land like you described because most of the players are no longer LGing.

Nowadays you can't do that. Which is why I'm saying playing delayed with farmer on EXPRESS is not optimal anymore.

Sure you achieved 30k land with a demo, but as a techer, which is easy to do, because the tech sell for like 6-7k each.

You can basically just buy up the cheap stuff and resell higher because the bots are going to buy no matter the price which effectively makes the tech stay high for most of set.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5122

Jan 9th 2020, 21:11:55

First off; tech doesnt sell at 6-7k on this server... it will spike to those numbers once or twice some sets when techers are inactive for a bunch of hours or if there are no decent ones. But a large techer will never sell the majority of his techs at any time of the set at anywhere near that.

Supply and demand governs the prices and they are usually around 3-4k then dropping below 3k on early on Saturday. Its too high. But if I could consistently sell at 6-7k I would never get under 100m NW on this server, and I would shame anyone else who failed to as well. :)

Secondly those are not techers I've linked. they are farmers and a casher.

Hessman123

Member
898

Jan 9th 2020, 21:29:26

..... I've consistently sold tech for 6-7k in express sets before

Celphi

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Jan 10th 2020, 0:59:30

Jan 8, 12:00 Jan 8, 16:00 $4048 $8526 $6,287.00 30 <- 1
Jan 8, 16:00 Jan 8, 20:00 $6659 $8867 $7,229.18 648 <- 2
Jan 8, 20:00 Jan 9, 00:00 $5917 $7332 $6,435.51 3822 <- 3
Jan 9, 00:00 Jan 9, 04:00 $3777 $9203 $6,657.06 6131 <- 4
Jan 9, 04:00 Jan 9, 08:00 $3333 $7829 $5,428.29 20,284 <- 5
Jan 9, 08:00 Jan 9, 12:00 $3464 $8312 $5,555.84 25,964 <- 6
Jan 9, 12:00 Jan 9, 16:00 $3494 $6922 $4,458.33 83,632 <- 7
Jan 9, 16:00 Jan 9, 20:00 $2368 $4525 $3,429.26 155,762
Jan 9, 20:00 Jan 10, 00:00 $2200 $4444 $3,410.45 201,812

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.