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JJ23 Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2012, 16:43:08

oooh man ive been itching to post my response for a long time, since you all bashed my country on this forum.

ill come out and say it. yeah, i run #81 Autumn On a Saturday Night in primary as most of you thought.

here are some topics id like to address

1. offense allies. its funny how blid gave veni (i wont say the owners name out of respect) the benefit of the doubt saying that even tho he had 3 offense allies, they musnt be letting him abuse their jets and if their jets are on PS, then they obv dont help him, but of course, if i have offense allies, then obviously the assumption is im cheating and its a schmuck who just sits there and lets me do PS after PS. right? that is a huge double standard and you guys MAY NOT and WILL NOT make that assertion. Do i make myself clear?

2. tech leeches. yes i had 1 solid techer that i picked up around halfway into the reset (as i was at around 35-40k arces). he gave me tech and every other day would send me his status and i would give him pointers. i also picked up another tech ally 2-3 days later, in exchange for an offense.. knowing i was nearing the end of my grab phase (i was around 45-50k acres at this point), i was gonna let him use my jets for a week and then break off the alliance, which is what i did.


so all of the crap and witchunt about me cheating... you guys need to cut the crap. im not asking you, im telling you. ive had a conversation with a couple mods, and any witchhunt crap will lead to a ban for any of you. if you think im cheating, report me ingame. if the mods dont delete me, then obv im not cheating and you need to stfu and accept that i am a better, or more fortunate player than you. fwiw.


and one more thing id like to address.

someone here, i think reroll (as im not going to dig through the posts) sand that the only reason my rep casher was ahead is because of my tech leeches and off allies.

get real.

okay. let me break it down for you.

by the time i had reached my orig land goal of 52.5k acres, the next highest rep was at 40k. and that was either herbs or reroll. mind you, i ALSO got TOPFED 2 times for 6k acres by zue ge liang and nam nam nam (IX NEO). and at this point, none of the other reps had even gotten hit yet. infact, i was the first country to get topfed before serp and total waste of time did their hits...

so not counting those 2 hits, lets add 6k land to my total. MEANING, if i was on the same level playing field of not getting lged, i would be approx 18.5k land ahead of the next best rep.. and remember, the entire time EVEN with the 2 topfeeds, i was keeping up with Veni in land... as a rep.

i will say, NONE OF YOU, and ESPECIALLY REROLL, could have played that way if i gave you 3 tech leeches, 3 off allies who DONT PS, and 5 free SPY OPS EVERYDAY. period. theres not a single person who can touch me in rep casher. and the only reason why im posting this is because i care not about finishing anymore.

i just got topfed AGAIN for the 3rd time.. and this coming about 2 weeks into my stock phase, and im sure its deliberate.

im going to do the rockman, which is dont hit a country whos been stocking for 2 weeks. GL bakku, and the rest of the players who are going for the W.

Edited By: JJ23 on Feb 22nd 2012, 16:47:43
See Original Post
Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

blid

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Feb 22nd 2012, 16:47:49

Haha, welcome back.
Originally posted by JJ23:

1. offense allies. its funny how blid gave veni (i wont say the owners name out of reset) the benefit of the doubt saying that eve tho he had 3 offense allies, they musnt be letting him abuse their jets and if their jets are on PS, then they obv dont help him, but of course, if i have offense allies, then obviously the assumption is im cheating and its a schmuck who just sits there and lets me do PS after PS. right?
I never said you are abusing offensive allies, and I don't even know who Veni's off allies are/were. I was just posturing that unless they're not attacking everyday, he wouldn't get to use the jets that much. Since I don't know who he offensive allied I can't say anything one way or the other. I complain about a casher having tech alliances because I think leeching should be immediately removed from the game (but I support removing offensive allies as well).
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

JJ23 Game profile

Member
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Feb 22nd 2012, 16:51:23

well if it wasnt you it was someone else. ive read the entire last 2-3 weeks all the posts. im just clearing a few things up.

all of my offense allies attacked. you can check their friggin news if u had spied me.

and one them i broke the pact with because we couldnt get on the same page PS wise. so i played most of the reset with 1 (dreamland) and yes he attacked. a lot.
Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

blid

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Feb 22nd 2012, 16:54:45

I didn't even know you had offensive allies to be honest.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

JJ23 Game profile

Member
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Feb 22nd 2012, 16:56:10

i had one from when i hit 18-20k onward and one around that 45k mark.

and one for 3 days (ingaland) whom was a mutual trade

i needed him to do my retal on zue ge liang and he needed me to do a couple retals. that lasted 4 days i think.

Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

braden Game profile

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11,480

Feb 22nd 2012, 16:56:23

"a huge double standard and you guys MAY NOT and WILL NOT make that assertion. Do i make myself clear?"

you bench close to twenty stone and you're worried over assertions made over the internet?

you may not and will not decide what other people think or feel

Pain Game profile

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4849

Feb 22nd 2012, 16:59:18

heeessssssssss baaaaaaaaaaack
Your mother is a nice woman

JJ23 Game profile

Member
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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:00:47

Originally posted by braden:
"a huge double standard and you guys MAY NOT and WILL NOT make that assertion. Do i make myself clear?"

you bench close to twenty stone and you're worried over assertions made over the internet?

you may not and will not decide what other people think or feel


wrong. i am telling you that if i do the same thing as another player who is obv legit, you MAY NOT assume that im doing the same thing, but in a cheating manner just because of my past. and yes if you attempt to think that way i will micromanage and tell you what you are allowed to think/feel. end of story.


and dont be jealous that i can bench about 2x my weight... well close. im about 185. idk how many friggin stones that is.
Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

tduong Game profile

Member
2224

Feb 22nd 2012, 17:06:59

did you notice you just lost 6k acres again?
Originally posted by blid:
I haven't had a wrong opinion in years

Reroll

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:14:03

.

Edited By: Reroll on Feb 22nd 2012, 17:22:43
See Original Post

Pain Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:15:16

lol
Your mother is a nice woman

Reroll

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:21:55

Correction JJ. I wasn't complaining about you tech leeching then got yourself to the top. I was puzzle why a player still can keep his cool when you hit him 9x. Not a single retal from that country. On the other hand, Herbs and Myself was nuked to death when we LG 4x on him. Therefore I was drawing a conclusion, that if this can happen to me, I could play a rep country as good as yours.

Also I still cannot understand why would you tell me you are Omar when I asked you.

blid

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:23:03

Because he IS Omar, haha. he's both.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

ingle Game profile

Member
603

Feb 22nd 2012, 17:23:13

Originally posted by Reroll:

Also I still cannot understand why would you tell me you are Omar when I asked you.



ditto...Omar did seem kind of strange, a random name from out of no where?

Reroll

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:31:19

Oh ... Okay. But who on earth with the right mind would create multiple when they have nothing up in their sleeves ?

blid

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Feb 22nd 2012, 17:36:44

Because he was banned from the forum on his JJ name, and he wanted to claim an account in Express wasn't JJ, haha
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

JJ23 Game profile

Member
2296

Feb 22nd 2012, 18:47:12

i created Omar to try and protect my country.

had i came right out and admitted to owning that country, im sure many of you would have topfed me just for the fck of it... to ruin my reset.

the point of the matter is... if im not winning then im not satisfied. ive said that on multiple threads in express and this server holds the same regard for me. win or go home.
Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

trep Game profile

Member
256

Feb 22nd 2012, 19:24:09

pretty sure everyone knew you ran that country

i think most ppl really don't care =P at least i didnt.

havent been paying attention at all this set, but it seems like its becoming more and more a dramafest here lol

Serpentor Game profile

Member
2800

Feb 22nd 2012, 19:50:08

I think people were complaining about veni's abuse of friends for off allies, not you. They were letting him PS first all set long, while they were fairly large jet heavies. The other stuff I don't know.
The EEVIL Empire

ingle Game profile

Member
603

Feb 22nd 2012, 19:52:13

Originally posted by Serpentor:
I think people were complaining about veni's abuse of friends for off allies, not you. They were letting him PS first all set long, while they were fairly large jet heavies. The other stuff I don't know.


People weren't complaining about JJ leeching off allies, they were complaining about the tech leeching. People were complaining about Veni leeching offensive allies (which is arguably even more beneficial than tech).

tduong Game profile

Member
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Feb 22nd 2012, 20:02:27

yes the offensive allies are much more beneficial than tech. More attack power, less loss, less maintenance, less oil, more defense, more military for sale, bigger targets, more attacks, more land.

techer allies, more tech but mostly stuff you don't use. Unless he got 3 techers that tech nothing but indy and some bus/res.
Originally posted by blid:
I haven't had a wrong opinion in years

Xinhuan Game profile

Member
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Feb 23rd 2012, 0:43:26

Originally posted by ingle:
People weren't complaining about JJ leeching off allies, they were complaining about the tech leeching. People were complaining about Veni leeching offensive allies (which is arguably even more beneficial than tech).


^ This.

Even Slagpit came out and questioned the use of Off-Allies on this server.

Pain Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 1:44:24

i like tourney because of the no allies allowed. it shows who can truly play better solo.
Your mother is a nice woman

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 1:48:00

Based on Slagpit's post I believe there is a chance OAs and RAs may disappear for next round.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Pain Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 1:49:44

then all allies should disappear. its not fair to get rid of offense allies and leave defense allies. if you want to equalize it drop 1 offense ally and make it so theres only 2 off and 2 def.
Your mother is a nice woman

braden Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:04:34

"and yes if you attempt to think that way i will micromanage and tell you what you are allowed to think/feel. end of story."

what you call micromanaging everybody else calls whining.

i cheated, and admit it, for about seven years there. nobody comes along yelling and screaming about my past, because i haven't given anybody one iota of a reason to doubt me.

you should try it sometime, it's quite fun.

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:06:51

Originally posted by Pain:
then all allies should disappear. its not fair to get rid of offense allies and leave defense allies. if you want to equalize it drop 1 offense ally and make it so theres only 2 off and 2 def.
Most people already run defensive allies with no offensive allies. DAs help keep PS from being too strong.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

crest23 Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:28:32

Originally posted by tduong:
yes the offensive allies are much more beneficial than tech. More attack power, less loss, less maintenance, less oil, more defense, more military for sale, bigger targets, more attacks, more land.

techer allies, more tech but mostly stuff you don't use. Unless he got 3 techers that tech nothing but indy and some bus/res.


#81 has been reselling tech most of the set. At these tech prices, he would have made hundreds of million of cash money baby! Is that not an unfair advantage? I reckon it equals or even surpassed an OA leech.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

crest23 Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:31:35

Whoever runs Veni should hang their head low in shame. They better not publicly come here and think they'll get any respect, definitely not from me.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Pain Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:46:03

Originally posted by blid:
Originally posted by Pain:
then all allies should disappear. its not fair to get rid of offense allies and leave defense allies. if you want to equalize it drop 1 offense ally and make it so theres only 2 off and 2 def.
Most people already run defensive allies with no offensive allies. DAs help keep PS from being too strong.


its not a problem in tourney. its not like the defender doesnt have the ability to benefit from the PS bonus also when he retals. its a two way street.
Your mother is a nice woman

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:48:52

It actually makes tourney kinda funky, plus the no allies PERIOD thing is kind of tourney's thing imo.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:51:40

Originally posted by JJ23:
mind you, i ALSO got TOPFED 2 times for 6k acres by zue ge liang and nam nam nam (IX NEO). and at this point, none of the other reps had even gotten hit yet. infact, i was the first country to get topfed before serp and total waste of time did their hits...
This is total BS btw, just look at Zhu Ge Liang and Nam nam's histories, they both top fed other players before they hit you.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Pain Game profile

Member
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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:54:00

Originally posted by blid:
It actually makes tourney kinda funky, plus the no allies PERIOD thing is kind of tourney's thing imo.


it makes sense to not have allies in a SOLO server. not to say it shouldnt but it makes more sense to not be able to benefit from other players when the goal is to see whos the best player not who can get the best allies or who can find 3 tech leeches.

Your mother is a nice woman

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 2:58:04

That's why you get rid of tech leeching... but I think DAs make the game more balanced, without diminishing the "solo" aspect, and IAs harm no one, and these things also encourage people to communicate with each other which helps the game imo.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

TNTroXxor Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 6:43:25

oh god..
Originally posted by JJ23:
i havent been deleted since last set

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 6:47:29

Originally posted by Pain:
i like tourney because of the no allies allowed. it shows who can truly play better solo.

I agree 100% but GDI has to either go away or really mean what its intended to do, I don't like the fact that you work hard 3 weels going all x to avoid issues and in the final week along comes the ingles of the world and turns you into a parking lot :(
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)

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-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF~SKA=-

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grimjoww Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 9:36:41

i hate cheaters

ingle Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 12:11:27

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by Pain:
i like tourney because of the no allies allowed. it shows who can truly play better solo.

I agree 100% but GDI has to either go away or really mean what its intended to do, I don't like the fact that you work hard 3 weels going all x to avoid issues and in the final week along comes the ingles of the world and turns you into a parking lot :(


Sorry KoH - that was only once and because my reset was already ruined and you were spying on me. ;)

GDI in tourney isn't defined the same as it is in Primary/Express. Tourney GDI is kind of pointless, but Primary/Express block out special attacks unless you double tap.

tduong Game profile

Member
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Feb 23rd 2012, 15:09:06

Originally posted by crest23:
Originally posted by tduong:
yes the offensive allies are much more beneficial than tech. More attack power, less loss, less maintenance, less oil, more defense, more military for sale, bigger targets, more attacks, more land.

techer allies, more tech but mostly stuff you don't use. Unless he got 3 techers that tech nothing but indy and some bus/res.


#81 has been reselling tech most of the set. At these tech prices, he would have made hundreds of million of cash money baby! Is that not an unfair advantage? I reckon it equals or even surpassed an OA leech.


earthquake destroyed 768 acres today. That is 768 acres at over 210k per building :(
I seem to get these earthquakes once every other day this week. It's pissing me off. Two of those should be equal to JJ's leech all set lmao.
Originally posted by blid:
I haven't had a wrong opinion in years

blid

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Feb 23rd 2012, 16:37:38

i wonder when we're to the point where it's not even worth bothering to rebuild after earthquakes. putting more in for buildings than theyll ever pay back out. will 768 acres pay you 161m before the round is through? soon maybe one should just drop the land
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

tduong Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 16:45:16

no it's not lol but i'm doing it anyways because i'm retarded.
Originally posted by blid:
I haven't had a wrong opinion in years

Xinhuan Game profile

Member
3728

Feb 23rd 2012, 18:08:26

Originally posted by Pain:
then all allies should disappear. its not fair to get rid of offense allies and leave defense allies. if you want to equalize it drop 1 offense ally and make it so theres only 2 off and 2 def.


Defensive allies should remain because they offer the element of risk vs reward.

With defensive allies, you are forced to make the choice:

1) Oversend PS by 75% without spying allies and hope allies don't double?
2) Oversend PS by 100% without spying allies but guarantee break?
3) Waste a turn or two to ally spy, and then estimate from there?
4) Spy all the allies too, using more turns, but save on jets/oil?

Without Def allies, you remove this element of risk vs reward. A good player knows when to estimate, and knows when not to estimate.

caffeineaddict Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 18:25:01

I'd prefer no allies, but if def allies remain i'd like to see them tempered down 25% of ally forces to a max of 25% of your forces based on actual military composition not total defence strength. That way for all allies to get the full benefit you have to have the same troops, turrets and tanks.

tduong Game profile

Member
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Feb 23rd 2012, 19:05:03

then lower PS strength too. Why is it that you get a guaranteed 50% PS but not for defensive allies. And you hvae to pay for defensive allies per turn and with losses if you are called to aid.
Originally posted by blid:
I haven't had a wrong opinion in years

caffeineaddict Game profile

Member
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Feb 23rd 2012, 19:11:51

jj, you probably get so much aggro on the boards for a few different reasons.

Your attitude is aggressive and offensive, you show little respect for others either on the forums or ingame, you threaten people snd you seem to believe you're better than everyone else. You repeatedly break the rules, either through nasty messages or by cheating or multiple accounts or whatever else which obviously is a rather negative factor.

You also seem to think that you can command people what to (not) do or say.

One huge reason you've done so well this set is because you farm other players and bizarrely have not been retalled. Like others, I just can't understand why you've got away with it. Am i jealous? No, because i don't farm and only rarely double tap and only take aggressive action if i feel pushed. I'm sure that if i farmed then i could do just as well as you, as could many others. Try a set where you only grab once and take a retal if it is made without getting riled up. See how well you do then.

Perhaps if you hadn't been caught doing whatever you'd been doing recently when you were deleted in different servers and resets then people wouldn't think quite so many bad things of you

Basically you're tainted by your past behaviour. You only have yourself to blame for that.

caffeineaddict Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 19:13:23

Tdoung, because you lose the use of those forces for 20 hours

Edited By: Warster on Feb 23rd 2012, 20:10:07

JJ23 Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 19:57:14

Originally posted by caffeineaddict:
jj, you probably get so much aggro on the boards for a few different reasons.

Your attitude is aggressive and offensive, you show little respect for others either on the forums or ingame, you threaten people snd you seem to believe you're better than everyone else. You repeatedly break the rules, either through nasty messages or by cheating or multiple accounts or whatever else which obviously is a rather negative factor.


you are a complete moron to think you can play on my calibur. like i told reroll... i could give you 3 off allies who never attacked, 3 tech leeches and you could not match my numbers.

its more than just attacks. its calculating precise breaks, timing and a lot of other things.

this is like if you were a professional golfer and thought that if you practiced u could be as good as tiger woods.

no. he was born with a knack, like the mozarts of the world, that regardless of how much effort you put in you will not surpass.


You also seem to think that you can command people what to (not) do or say.

One huge reason you've done so well this set is because you farm other players and bizarrely have not been retalled. Like others, I just can't understand why you've got away with it. Am i jealous? No, because i don't farm and only rarely double tap and only take aggressive action if i feel pushed. I'm sure that if i farmed then i could do just as well as you, as could many others. Try a set where you only grab once and take a retal if it is made without getting riled up. See how well you do then.

Perhaps if you hadn't been caught doing whatever you'd been doing recently when you were deleted in different servers and resets then people wouldn't think quite so many bad things of you

Basically you're tainted by your past behaviour. You only have yourself to blame for that.
Originally posted by blid:
The way my 30m got busted was the ultimate in nobility and self-sacrifice because I could have simply canceled the alliance but I was too big a person to do so.

Pain Game profile

Member
4849

Feb 23rd 2012, 20:21:22

Originally posted by Xinhuan:
Originally posted by Pain:
then all allies should disappear. its not fair to get rid of offense allies and leave defense allies. if you want to equalize it drop 1 offense ally and make it so theres only 2 off and 2 def.


Defensive allies should remain because they offer the element of risk vs reward.

With defensive allies, you are forced to make the choice:

1) Oversend PS by 75% without spying allies and hope allies don't double?
2) Oversend PS by 100% without spying allies but guarantee break?
3) Waste a turn or two to ally spy, and then estimate from there?
4) Spy all the allies too, using more turns, but save on jets/oil?

Without Def allies, you remove this element of risk vs reward. A good player knows when to estimate, and knows when not to estimate.


i never estimate, i always get spies. but thats not the point.

the point is allies allow someone to ally up with friends and be able to run much less defense or offense then they should be required to. you could keep 2m turrets on hand and still be a 4m break if you have the right defense allies. why should you get to double your defense for free while i have only a PS bonus to help me.if youre going to eliminate one you may as well eliminate all of them. i would agree with dropping the number of offense allies in solo servers.

Your mother is a nice woman

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Feb 23rd 2012, 21:59:47

Originally posted by ingle:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by Pain:
i like tourney because of the no allies allowed. it shows who can truly play better solo.

I agree 100% but GDI has to either go away or really mean what its intended to do, I don't like the fact that you work hard 3 weels going all x to avoid issues and in the final week along comes the ingles of the world and turns you into a parking lot :(


Sorry KoH - that was only once and because my reset was already ruined and you were spying on me. ;)

GDI in tourney isn't defined the same as it is in Primary/Express. Tourney GDI is kind of pointless, but Primary/Express block out special attacks unless you double tap.


LOL! Ya man its all good, I was just checking to see if you're reading the boards :p
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)

https://youtu.be/...pxFw4?si=mCDXT3t1vmFgn0qn

-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF~SKA=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

caffeineaddict Game profile

Member
409

Feb 23rd 2012, 22:50:42

Jajaja.

jj, why the insults?

I can calculate the "exact" break. I do for almost every single attack i make. I spy my target, i spy the alilies and then i make my shot. As for timing, i do that too. Watch for techers and indies to sell and see their nw drop. Watch for farmers and their nw will rise. Watch for somone mid-feeding and you know they can be a relatively easy bottomfeed target. Compare the alliance cost with land size and you can see that somone is in gdi and has no allies... or even better, see that somone's alliance expense is .0015, .003, .0045 or .0075 of their nw and you know they don't have def allies. You're not the only person in the ~2000 people that play that know how to add up, look at eestats and understand that spies are damned important

I'm pretty reasonable at the game but i set myself constraints. Since i hit once then move on i'm making up to, or more than, 15 spy ops/day. How can thay compare to your farming where you mau need 3 spy ops to make your 5 PS. You think that that somehow impairs my efficiency? This set is the first time i've played casher and for the first 20 days or so i was always around the top 10 in land and top 15 in rank, however, because i hit once, i couldn't keep up because i was losing too many spies so had to use valuable land as indies

You're a reasonable player jj, but you ain't KoD

Please don't insult me again. There's really no need for it and you only go to prove my point. And no threats either.