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Fatty

Member

711

Mar 29th 2011, 22:39:48

Why don't you scholars leave the farmers alone and fix the game.

Do away with the GDI BS.

It's a war game for Christ's sake.


Fix it.



~Fatty~



____________________________

Farming alliances since 2002.

Prima

Member

286

Mar 30th 2011, 4:29:26

hmmm ... interesting, guess the farmer strat needs a full revamp, let's see what can be done.
ZDH: Doesn't the Tigress do all the hunting and killing anyway?
Happy Hunting - Tigress

Foobooy Evolution

Member

318

Mar 30th 2011, 4:36:36

The farmer strat will be impeded by this change, the balancing appears to help other strat. Net result: all those farmers that weren't making the top of the ranks before, surely won't now.

Prima

Member

286

Mar 30th 2011, 4:59:01

it helps the Theo Casher and Commies, which is probably the direction this was going in.

The only thing I can see now is playing a Fascist Grabbing country vs. an all-x strat. Rebalance with more land, to regain the lost income. Problem is the start-up, which completely leaves the farmer start-ups vulnerable now, especially non-fascists. (I will qualify the latter statement by saying on non-alliance servers.) Question being how much military can be purchased with the lower starting income? So commies are going to have a field day on anyone doing a farm startup. They already do, but this gives the commie an even bigger gap to play with.

Alternately early reset public bushel prices will need to be much higher to compensate for the loss in PM revenue and to keep up with the commies new found land grabbing power when starting up.

I foresee 30-40k acre commies in express with this change.
ZDH: Doesn't the Tigress do all the hunting and killing anyway?
Happy Hunting - Tigress

Drinks

Member

1093

Mar 30th 2011, 5:11:20

Originally posted by qzjul:
Originally posted by Drinks:
Means cashers will be producing the same amount while buying cheaper bushels. And has there not already been 101 arguements already saying that cashers out do farmers.


(sorry to single you out, but I need to respond to some of this...)

I don't think you understand how the bushel price affects strategies and balances between strategies; the peak should be a similar price, or higher, which causes cashers to stock at the same or higher; then at the end the destock will be lower (in other words, it should bring back a little more of a bushel peak). This actually hurts non-farmers who stock mid-set more than anybody else. Late stocking people still stock & destock at a ratio of 36(+1-2)/36 stock/destock which is approximately the same as 39(+1-2)/39 stock/destock. Sure it will lower overall networth's a little, by like 7%. But a good player can squeeze that out in a good set surely?

This also has the effect of making it so demos that actually want to get the $36 price point have to get a fluff-ton of military tech, as you need closer to the max military tech point to get $36; makes demo-public destock less trivial.


Fair enough to the demo arguement.


(Same argument about a weaker start up as others posted)
Firstly it does hurt farmers because when bushels prices are like $38 i could easily get my military tech high enough that my private market was $38 (maybe $37). Meaning i could sell my bushels on private market for instant cash without market tax. But now ill be selling for $34 (since u say $36 is dam hard to get). Which means early game ill be making less money and investing in less tech and military (so grabbed more and even less tech early on which is a chain effect meaning even less income). While the cashers/techers are making the same money, and are paying $36 for bushel consumption.



And mid game when i said cashers would benefit was because of this.
Cashers, Techers, Farmers all produce the exact same amount as they did before. You say the bushel peak will be the same, i think it will be slightly lower but for arguments sake lets say its the same.

Cashers/techers buy bushels for same price, farmers produce same bushel amount. Which means stock Levels will be identicle to what they were before the changes (if peak is lower then cashers would have more stock, but lets ignore that). Now they both sell for $36. So its identicle stock to last set, sold at identicle prices. But cashers now have lower input costs (lower bushel prices)(If not mid set then atleast early set) while farmers have lower profit early on (mid set they dont sell bushels since they are stocking, so doesnt make a difference there)


Conclusion: Identicle stocks according to midgame. Farmers now have a worse start and therefore lower stock. Cashers/techers now have a slightly better start and therefore higher stock.
<Drinks> going to bed
<Drinks> pm me if I get hit
<-- Drinks is now known as DrinksInBed -->
<DrinksInBed> looks like I'm an alcoholic

Dragonlance

Member

1611

Mar 30th 2011, 5:17:28

I don't have any statistical base for my opinion, but i know of fascist farmers that were nearly all explore and were theo and demo destocking and finishing top 10 2-3 wit years ago, with absolute ease, and now they would struggle to be top 40.

Now either this means that the 38-39 price bushel did not actually help farmers at all, or players are netting better atm than they did 3 yrs ago, or changes have greatly increased the NW of casher/techer more than any changes did to farmer..

It was always my belief that casher benefitted from the changes to the bushel price greatly, as the final sell price was so much higher on a late set destock for casher, than previously... But when i think about it, all late set destock should be in the same boat.

For some reason i like the change.

torment

Member

278

Mar 30th 2011, 10:41:55

imo its more the reduction in stock value loss that helps more.

Helmet

Member

1333

Mar 30th 2011, 11:06:29

Am I the only person that would like them to make Oiler an actually viable strat that vets would play? Oil is a joke, now facism sucks, if they made oiler better at least we'd still play facism!

jedioda

Member

393

Mar 30th 2011, 11:07:08

I think I made near to the best that could be done this reset in tournament with a farmer strat ... and I am not sure to finish top 10.
If game needs to be rebanlanced, sure it should not be against farmers.

Now farmer strat will be viable only is just a few players choose to play farmer.

Only good thing is that now we have to re-work our netting strategy.

Chewi

Member

659

Mar 30th 2011, 17:45:32

Farmers can still get top spots. They were doing it when food was $32.

Drinks

Member

1093

Mar 30th 2011, 23:09:09

But when food was $32 everything else was different. So its comparing applies to oranges. Eg tech values changes a lot. etc.
<Drinks> going to bed
<Drinks> pm me if I get hit
<-- Drinks is now known as DrinksInBed -->
<DrinksInBed> looks like I'm an alcoholic

lincoln

Member

949

Mar 31st 2011, 5:05:08

speaking of express only

this change actually hurts stockers and benefits people who spend time and energy playing the server

mirabile dictu
FoG

torment

Member

278

Mar 31st 2011, 5:44:25

I did clear rank 1 by 20Mnw or so as a farmer with food at$32:p

Chewi

Member

659

Mar 31st 2011, 6:42:57

If big nubs like torment can get rank 1 with farmer at $32 food everyone should be able to! Also that set top 5 were all farmers.

torment

Member

278

Mar 31st 2011, 9:36:01

HAHA. you is got beatdown bigs that set by big nubs like me!

that makes yous still bigger nubs!

jedioda

Member

393

Mar 31st 2011, 12:25:55

Top 5 all farmers... Ah yes, it should be commie farmers !!!

locket

Member

6176

Apr 1st 2011, 4:58:37

Why would this change make a food peak higher? less bushels being sold on the private means lower prices on public. The only way it gets a higher peak from what i can see is if there are fewer people playing farmer.

At the start the price will be lower now which would hurt farmers compared to this set, and if it starts lower it is more likely to stay a bit lower in the long run too imo.

Drinks

Member

1093

Apr 1st 2011, 5:05:42

Exactly what locket said. Im still waiting to see if a reply from a mod arrives
<Drinks> going to bed
<Drinks> pm me if I get hit
<-- Drinks is now known as DrinksInBed -->
<DrinksInBed> looks like I'm an alcoholic

Helmet

Member

1333

Apr 1st 2011, 11:25:13

Originally posted by locket:
Why would this change make a food peak higher? less bushels being sold on the private means lower prices on public. The only way it gets a higher peak from what i can see is if there are fewer people playing farmer.

At the start the price will be lower now which would hurt farmers compared to this set, and if it starts lower it is more likely to stay a bit lower in the long run too imo.


It's already happening. Food is $99 in express right now the 1hr averages for the past day have been high (46-48). A lot of people obviously chose not to go farmer this set. It was 33-35 for a while and then today I log on and it's 99. If it keeps peaking high maybe some people will switch back to farmer and drive it down, but in the short run I think we're going to see demand > supply because nobody wants to play farmer and sell at 34.

locket

Member

6176

Apr 1st 2011, 19:55:53

Yah but express is a poor substitute since 1 person buying the food can affect the price. I did it one set and raised it $15 for fun. Could have gone higher really.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
9863

Apr 1st 2011, 20:15:40

well i don't expect the bushel peak to increase, but i do expect it to stay relatively the same, which effectively means the peak to base height is larger...
Finally did the signature thing.

Helmet

Member

1333

Apr 2nd 2011, 0:13:11

Express actually has pretty stable food. I've played for maybe 7 sets and have never seen bushels like this. It's always been under 50. Usually it's about 40-41 until the last 6hrs.

Drinks

Member

1093

Apr 2nd 2011, 1:06:07

Peak to base height is larger. But cashers/farmers/techers have identicle stocks to before. As i stated in my long post up there.

SO other then destroying farmers early on, and making demo bushel reselling harder. I dont get this change
<Drinks> going to bed
<Drinks> pm me if I get hit
<-- Drinks is now known as DrinksInBed -->
<DrinksInBed> looks like I'm an alcoholic

cRaZyDaVe

Member

1483

Apr 2nd 2011, 6:24:02

this makes casher stronger

if bushels end up cheaper on Pub Market
Originally posted by Twain:
I love the idea of sending even 100 troops into an area so they can go assassinate citizens one at a time.

ZIP

Member

3222

Apr 2nd 2011, 12:35:25

i love reading how everyone thinks they know how a change will effect the game, when the change will have little effect on the game, but the debating of how a change will change the game is the thing that changes it more. ( you follow me? ) It's the talk of the change that has the greater effect.

I personally like the changes. It makes you think and rework some strats, not just following someone's written instructions like a zombie and claim how good you are when you didn't come up with fluff.
fluff your 300 Spartans fool - i have 32 of the biggest fluffed mother fluffers made of titanium !!
A brigade from Blackstreetboyz (#91) has invaded your lands! Your defenses held against the invaders and forced them away! Your military lost:1 Troops

mazooka

Member

355

Apr 2nd 2011, 19:37:20

i like it for changing it up. dont like having to get another tech as a farmer though.

im curious to see how this change affects tech prices. seems to me like mil tech is going to be a very strong tech the whole set now and techers just got a new moneymaker. no more cheap mil tech.

hurricane

Member

21

Apr 2nd 2011, 23:21:21

techer is the king strat..always has been with casher being #2

the catch is you have to grab to play those to win

the farmer changes that were instituted allowed all-xers to compete better, but still not win

these changes don't hurt grabbing farmer per se, they punish the all-x players

there is a familiar focus on game makers wanting players to not play all-x and to grab..to me this will not grow the community it will shrink it..at least half the players play all-x..none of them are winning anyway so why further hinder them?

ZIP

Member

3222

Apr 3rd 2011, 0:14:47

can an all x even make the top 10 anymore?
fluff your 300 Spartans fool - i have 32 of the biggest fluffed mother fluffers made of titanium !!
A brigade from Blackstreetboyz (#91) has invaded your lands! Your defenses held against the invaders and forced them away! Your military lost:1 Troops

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 3rd 2011, 19:20:34

I can buy 20mil troops on the private???
What happened? You're messing with the market too much. Mind you $39 food has a huge market implication. On stockpiling, as does losing the $2bil cap.

Still think LIFO sales should be used. So what if it's illogical. It's what brings the market to life. The dynamics in trying to undercut or force sell creates bigger fluxes in the prices.

Food didn't fluctuate much because of the ability of everyone to offload much better on the private, and players prolly prefferered holding beyond $2bil.

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 4th 2011, 2:07:17. Reason: hmmm no I didn't
See Original Post

synoder

Member

1664

Apr 4th 2011, 0:29:12

I thought I read somewhere where LIFO was used. Haven't really paid enough attention to notice tho.

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 4th 2011, 2:10:00

Don't really like this new one.

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 4th 2011, 2:12:47. Reason: want 2bil cap back2
See Original Post

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 4th 2011, 2:46:06

Did the entire public market sell out last set?
Was food stockpiled much this set?

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 4th 2011, 2:48:36. Reason: We jump privately?
See Original Post

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
9863

Apr 4th 2011, 15:52:13

it's FIFO

LIFO would lead to people having to price their goods lower, and makes it *much* more dependant on when you play
Finally did the signature thing.

Forgotten

Member

1573

Apr 4th 2011, 23:54:42

Chewi ran a casher this set and he'll finish ~8mil more net then me as a Farmer,

and I know I'm a better netter than he is.

You make this change, he would out net me even more.



Oh and we're both top 10.
~LaF's Retired Janitor~

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 5th 2011, 6:13:59

I like LIFO. I think it's better for the game, better for the strats out there, and better for the tactics it could provide.

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 5th 2011, 6:19:04. Reason: psss QZJUL!
See Original Post

highrock

Member

564

Apr 6th 2011, 0:04:25

Has this not been implemented yet? Alliance server still has $32 as the PM price.
formerly Viola MD

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
9863

Apr 6th 2011, 0:12:55

blah looks like nobody bothered to set it so it would update that

fixed

Edited By: qzjul on Apr 6th 2011, 0:15:35
See Original Post
Finally did the signature thing.

torment

Member

278

Apr 7th 2011, 13:03:12

you is all nubs!

Slagpit

Member

3681

Apr 8th 2011, 7:37:00

I don't understand very much of the last dozen or so posts.

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 8th 2011, 20:43:04

Last dozen or so looks like mainly me...

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 8th 2011, 20:45:59. Reason: I like to confuse...
See Original Post

Slagpit

Member

3681

Apr 8th 2011, 20:57:11

"I can buy 20mil troops on the private???
What happened? You're messing with the market too much."

?

koonfasa

Member

123

Apr 8th 2011, 21:38:48

oh just that?
That was prolly a misread. It was about 13mil the next day I looked, but then I'm not sure how the private market sets volumes for sale (I also had 3mil military tech crash selling), and I don't use the private market till very late. I'm usually on about 10-14k and it just looked like there was enough for every strat to start buying off the private completely.

Edited By: koonfasa on Apr 8th 2011, 21:43:08. Reason: ike=like
See Original Post

Slagpit

Member

3681

Apr 8th 2011, 22:21:48

Private market hasn't been changed by us, except for adding in the PM regeneration bonus. That will likely be lowered eventually.

I still don't understand the rest of it.

hurricane

Member

21

Apr 20th 2011, 0:57:18

these new prices suck

LsD-25

New Member

2

Apr 20th 2011, 1:09:49

=o

moronic1

Member

102

May 20th 2011, 15:50:31

What military tech percentage is required for a Demo to sell for $36 on the internal market?

moronic1

Member

102

May 20th 2011, 17:55:55

Am I right in thinking a Demo need about 81.69% out of a max of 81.67% and that would mean about 77.5% of the tech points needed to maxing out the tech?

Or am I way off?

Marshal

Member

25,232

May 20th 2011, 21:27:34

you are way off, near max mil tech is needed.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Galleri: Sadly pics of my boobies are on my ftp-folder.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....

moronic1

Member

102

May 21st 2011, 0:00:14

And 0.02% off the max tech is way off??

Marshal

Member

25,232

May 21st 2011, 20:16:22

nvm, i read your post wrong.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Galleri: Sadly pics of my boobies are on my ftp-folder.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....