...are nothing but revenue generators.

On the local news last night, I heard that the cameras had acquired a total revenue of ~$877k since they were activated about a year ago. Then the news went into how the cameras prevented blah blah accidents, which is total rubbish since you can only use statistics to determine that, and we all know that 77% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Not getting snapped by one (or more) of these cameras requires that ALL drivers change their driving habits. Stopped over the stop bar? Snap. Right on red? Snap. Oh, you have to stop completely (and behind the stop bar) before turning? Ooops.

Speeding through a yellow? Snap. Oh wait, you didn't know that some of these cameras measure speed as well? Lick my balls.

But the worst of it all is changing the light timings when the cameras get activated. Take what happened to me, for example. I carpool, and to get from one side of town to the other, I need to make a left turn across a particularly-annoying intersection. It's a very busy road intersecting with the main circle in town. There are three left-turn lanes, two straight-thru lanes, and two right-turn lanes. And that's just for the road I turn off of in my direction. The intersection is lit up like a Christmas tree; there are so many lights.

A couple months before they activated the cameras, when the traffic lights were about to turn red, the arrows turned red at the same time as the other lights. All the lights stayed on yellow for exactly 5 seconds before turning red. I know this because someone also timed it so that if you get off of work about the same time I do, you hit all the red lights on the way out.

So, about 5 months after the cameras were activated, I was in a bit of a hurry to get to the other side of town. I had also gotten off of work a tiny bit earlier, so I was making pretty good time going through the yellow lights. The intersection comes up, and, as predicted, all the lights turn yellow. I'm like "pshaw, I got this" and don't even slow down to turn. It's a pretty wide turn, so nothing wrong there. 3 seconds after the lights turn yellow, and right when I cross the stop bar, the left arrow lights turn red, while all the other lights stay yellow.

As I complete my turn, this thought crosses my mind:

"Bend over, Mr. [NukEvil], you are about to be ass raped by a traffic camera".

That was a couple months ago, and I still haven't received a citation for it. Maybe the vehicle very close behind me shielded my tag from the cameras?

Anyways, discuss your thoughts, feelings, and experiences on traffic cameras in general. I want a 100-post thread in 6 hours. Go.

41% of statistics aren't taken into account when determining the 77% being made up.

Well we see Nuk got a ticket :P
And out here, they review the photos before sending the ticket. I.E. the over the line photo.
All in all...this does not bug me. I don't drive :P

I saw on the news that the statics show they actually cause more accidents.

ya, i saw that too ruth, but it ended up being less side impacts (T-bone) and more rear end collisions. rear end collisions result in fewer fatalities and stuff, so it's apparently a net gain

Don't object to the enforcement of the laws, object to the laws. You broke the law and got caught doing it. If you think you should be able to run yellow lights and this is ok then advocate changing the traffic act (or whatever it is called where you are).

I won't get into any details about how many people get hurt/killed due to people thinking it is ok to bend the traffic laws.

Some random factoids:

Did you know that the most common cause of car on car collisions is cars changing lanes from left to right. Also the most expensive type of 2 vehicle collisions.

The most expensive type of accidents involving cars are usually vehicle getting stuck on a R&R track causing a train derailment.
Not to be outmatched by a vehicle hitting an expensive piece of municipal infrastructure causing serious damage to it.

Most common cause of car-pedestrian collisions are cars turning right on a green.

Although in general women are cheaper to insure than men (not always because of accident rate, but how much damage is done), in the case of SUV's and minivans the opposite tends to be true.

Finally: talking on a cell phone while driving weather it's hands free or not puts you at as much risk of having a collision as having 4-5 drinks within an hour and then driving.

Cars don't cause car accidents, people do:P

walling on a cellphone whilst driving counts as being totally slaughtered eh ;)

oh yeah, I should add that that intersection of yours sounds rather insane and poorly designed. However without seeing a picture or knowing more details it's hard to know for sure.

You want to see something truly insane: check this out:

busiest interchange in north america:
http://img.photobucket.com/...s/v476/gf_curtis/hjjy.jpg
(hwy 401/400, toronto)

largest interchange in north america
http://img406.imageshack.us/...velstack105110inlaox2.jpg
I110/I105 interchange in LA
:P

we are responsible in Sanct, we pull over, across 4 lanes of traffic to wall :D

oh and Matian, where did you get the "Finally: talking on a cell phone while driving weather it's hands free or not puts you at as much risk of having a collision as having 4-5 drinks within an hour and then driving.?"

It is very difficult to ensure that red light cameras are placed properly. It would be interesting to study the demographics of who gets victimized by red light cameras and speed cameras. I live in a suburb of Washington DC. My county goes right up next to Washington DC, but also becomes very rural when you get to the edges farthest away from the city. It also has many areas with a lot of Hispanics, and other areas that are about as rich as any neighborhood in the United States. How do you properly balance red light cameras in rural areas versus red light cameras in high population density areas?

If you look at the statistics, almost all the accidents in my county happen very close to the city. So does that mean that we should basically just leave all those country roads alone? They've put cameras on roads that probably haven't had an accident in 20+ years. But the accidents that do happen on those roads are more likely to be fatal, because people drive faster on those roads because they are country roads.

So is it about preventing speeders & red light runners, is it about generating revenue, is it about preventing accidents, or is it about preventing fatal accidents?

multiple insurance industry studies and collision data.

I got a red light ticket once!

WHEE

But instead of having a $400 ticket, I was able to reduce it down to $40 :) woot! I am very cautious when I approach a light now when I see the hand signal

Also for the cameras that don't photograph the driver, there have been a large number of prank tickets given due to people who use someone's license plate number printed on glossy paper to cover their plate and then purposefully speed through the cameras resulting in the other person getting the ticket. I think I read that in one town, the people wanted to prove a point and caused the city official in charge of the cameras some ridiculous number of tickets (the more common their car, the easier it is).

An intersection in Tucson at Oracle and River is the worst place for red light cameras in my personal experiences. At each corner there are places where people are constantly pulling into so most of the red light runners were snapped at the end of the intersection because some vehicle would slow down to like 5 MPH to make a turn into Red Lobster or something, causing all of the traffic in the intersection to have to stop and wait.

Most of the people snapped didn't run the red light but got stuck at the end of the intersection just waiting 2-3 seconds for someone to turn. I just avoided that intersection altogether and as a result I'd say every intersection around the area got busier.

I'm content with speed cameras since with speeding it is black and white for the most part; you were going 11MPH over the speed limit or you weren't. The red light ones just don't seem to take into account problems that can occur out there.

If you rear end them then you're most likely following too close. You should never assume a car will go through a yellow.

if there is a vehicle turning left that is in the intersection and you want to turn left you aren't supposed to be right behind that vehicle in the intersection with it.

That doesn't stop people and yes realistically it doesn't always make sense to do that. Get the law changed, not the enforcement...

heh I know that intersection! Although I am trying to remember what is at Oracle and River to deem a camera (Tucson Mall?). I haven't been to that area of town in years.
I demand the return of "suicide" lanes!

i was told if your doin the speed limit and the guy next to you aint as you pass a traffic camera you both get the ticket

also i once paid $300 for an ice cream cone for speeding. sucked ass

i'll be sure to flip them off for you when i ride thru the light on my unicycle. speeding isn't a crime, getting into accidents is. not that i have much chance of getting away with speeding on my unicycle.

meh, i could probably talk on my cell phone while riding the unicycle after 5-6 shots in an hour, while also flipping off the camera. so, y'all just a bunch of non-driving SOBs.

The cameras are so useless. Even the mobile ones are easy to spot. So its slow down, speed up, slow down, speed up or slam your breaks at a yellow light and let the other guy run into you.

I feel bad for the tourists in DC as they're the ones collecting all the tickets these days. Also, who the hell puts a speed camera on the entrance to a highway? Literally the entrance to 395 off NY Ave has a camera because it starts you out going 30mph and then just jumps to 50mph for no apparent reason. What a scam.

I'm less concerned with red light than speeding cameras. Being given a fine for 1km/h over the limit because it turns out my speedo is marginally inaccurate (but within manufacturer tolerances) is ridiculous.
With that said. The way to see if a given camera is working to prevent accidents or not. Find out how many licences drivers there were for the year and the previous. Work out the percentage difference. Look at a given camera location and compare the number of accidents with the previous year. Take the percentage change and compare it to the percentage change of the number of drivers. If the accident percentage change is lower, well done, it is preventing some accidents.
Bear in mind this is simplified and doesnt take other factors into account.

some good posts from martian especially with regard to change the law not the enforcement. Altho I must say that in general I thought the red light cameras only snap you if you enter the intersection after the light has turned RED, which seems pretty legit to me... (ie I don't have a problem with the law or the enforcement, speeding laws otoh)

Heh, I love the 110/105 interchange. They just decided to stop using traffic light cams in California. =D

yah, right. we're going to be able to change the laws. and just what kinda response will the insurance companies make if we change the laws? unaffordable required insurance. duh.

They are bullfluff. I got a ticket in Knoxville TN for not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red. No one around. Came as close as you can come to a complete stop without actually totally stopping (saw it on the online video they linked me with the ticket). I think it cost me 80 bucks. There was a news story that a fellow took a rifle and was shooting the Knoxville cameras. Too bad he eventually got caught. Free that guy.

dunno, i ran one a couple of winters ago and didn't hear anything about it. basically, there was a sheet of ice for 30 feet before the light and i couldn't brake safely on it, so i coasted until i hit dry pavement and punched my right hand turn.

the dry pavement was the first lane of traffic that was perpendicular to my line of travel. the second lane of traffic had an SUV in it.

Halifax doesn't have the issue of traffic cameras and in a discussion with the head traffic planner for the city he admitted that, 'we enlongate yellow lights because that is the most effective time for passing traffic'.

hmm, might have to revise my unicycle riding boast. pretty sure i could do it in broad daylight. my current abraisions are saying that i can't do it at night.

I think Texas had an incident 10 or so years ago where they were shortening the yellows to get more tickets.

I haven't seen any tickets for it yet, but I got stuck in an intersection for two full cycles a few months ago. I got pictures taken of my car from every angle. Of course, you could see all the cars jammed in around me too.

well, it does cut down on unionized people being able to go on strike and demanding pay raises because they refuse to do the work.

have gotten a red light ticket before in delaware where i live. $75 on an extremely short yellow. they are absolutely just revenue generators...the statistics show "we are 80% safer because the cameras catch 80% fewer people than when they were put in", but the real statistic is that some company just made over half of that ticket, and there is no measurable statistic to show "there are this many fewer accidents because of the cameras" because the cameras DON'T PREVENT ACCIDENTS, they merely catch people who have run a red light, either on purpose, or by accident, or because light yellows are seemingly random in this town and no one knows how long a yellow is. supposedly the solid white stripe on the ground leading up to the light is the distance you can travel (if you are going the speed limit) after the light turns yellow and before it turns red, but do you really think the guys striping the streets are getting out their TI-83's to calculate how long that stripe is supposed to be for 35mph zone and 3 second yellow light?

was in DC this past weekend and it was just like trumper said...people knew where the speeding cameras were and were slowing down, then speeding back up again...bullfluff, that's more dangerous than people speeding in the first place, and everyone keeping up with traffic.

might as well bring out the statistic about how many people are willing to contest a ticket where they have to contest a picture taken of them. look, we have proof that you are guilty, just pay the dang ticket.

look, i had a perfectly good reason for running that light. the stars were in perfect alignment and i was guarenteed not to hurt anyone. it's even demonstrated by the perfect capture of my plate and face that no accident could've happened.

well as a fireman's perspective We wish you all would slow down and live to drive another day. I have been at numerous accidents from a little fender bender where the occupant (s) just required being checked out by our medics then released. and some accidents where we had to cut the auto in half to recover the bodies or what was left of them.. Just remember when you drive by an auto accident and you see the vehicle draped with a tarp there was a death involved. We respond to intersections, round y bouts straight roads curved roads you name it we have been there toooo many times. One thing around here we have to watch out for Amish carriages and there horses there all over the roads and when we get drivers from Maryland who are just out on a friendly drive zooming up the road and with our hilly roads a few have been nailed and several Amish have been killed by us the plain people. So please just drive defensively cause your life and someone Else's life may depend upon it.
The roads are too crowded to haul the mail now days. Marylander s are the worst drivers in Pa. Drive giving the roads the respect they need. In town or out in rural areas. obey the laws and you wont have to worry about any cameras or tickets .

i got a red light camera ticket. it was from arizona, but i live in california. it clearly recorded and pictured my entire violation that occured in citrus heights california and asked me to respond. it had no court information, no information about the fine amount. it only asked me a few questions..... was it me? if not who was it? did you sell the vehicle before the violation occured> if so to who?.. is it the law to snitch on yourself or others??

i felt the ticket was not even good enough for toilet paper and found this helpful site...


http://www.highwayrobbery.net/

this site offers alot of examples of real spam or snitch red light or speeding camera tickets and how to tell if you have a true summons to appear issued by a law enforcement officer or an oppertunity to cost yourself some coin in the name of honesty.

i did not respond to incriminate myself or someone else.
what happend was jack fluff. nothing. so if you feel like you have to tell on yourself or your friends, to be a good citizen this site is not for you.

in california (or the US) the cameras at intersections are leased from a company that hold rights to operate them . they wont allow your local government outright purchase the units and operate them. so in turn you get some company writing a citation and asking the registered owner to hang himself, provide evidence, and become witness to the violation, then giving it all to your local law enforcment to give to the DA. after that, they have a solid case, because an actual officer of the law did not personally varify who was operating the vehicle at the time of the offence.

as a person who as hit by a guy speeding through a red light why don't you fluff off with your stupid fluff chat about how red light cameras don't save lives.

I also fully support speed cameras in certain areas. Especially accident black spots. there are too many assholes on the road who are more than happy to rip off the line around corners and don't give a fluff if they just happen to lose control of there v8's going over median strips and killing innocent drivers.

I'm more than happy to cop a few revenue raising cameras if it means cameras in other areas save lives.

The camera's won't take a picture of the face, and at least in Canada you won't win the "I wasn't driving" arguement because the law punishes the registered owner, not the driver.

While im sure I'm about hear the hypotheticals of stolen cars etc etc, if you borrow dads car and get the ticket, he's responsible. If you borrow your buds car and get busted denting someone in a parking lot, he's responsible.

As for the camera ticket itself, I'll use the same arguement I use for taxes. While no one WANTS to pay taxes, no one WANTS to get a ticket, especially from a camera. I'll bet you don't like paved roads either though, im sure streetlights really annoy you.

Point being, tickets suck, but they pay for other bonuses. If you don't want to help the city budget, drive slower and don't rush reds.


Nukey -- I get what you mean by that intersection, theres a few doozies in Ottawa, luckily no cameras though. Can't you turn at a different easier intersection?

Martian -- That 401 intersection legitimately scares me. Two things I will not do? 1) Drive in Montreal (they are all right fluffin crazy) and 2) Exit at that part of the 401. I don't know it well enough and will end up in Hamilton or some other ghetto ;-)

the situation is ever increasing in aussie as well. With the red light cameras, also taking speeding on green and yellow as well...

Really? So you were hit by the guy in an intersection with cameras? If so, the cameras didn't really stop the guy from hitting you, now did they? Therefore, they wouldn't have saved your life had the guy been going fast enough or had hit you in the right spot, now would they? All they would have done is recorded your death, and the guy that hit you would have ended up in jail for vehicular manslaughter. And maybe sent a ticket for careless driving.

The rest of your post means nothing, so I'm not going to respond to any more of it.




It's either take that intersection, or drive on the Circle and hit every single red light on the way to the interstate. And I'll still have to drive through that same intersection anyways. There's at least 40 traffic lights on the Circle between where I work and the interstate, and maybe 15 on the road I take now to bypass most of the ones on the Circle. The way I drive now is THE quickest way to the interstate--especially during rush hour.

Sorry you got hit. WWith that said, red light cameras (at least locally) have actually shown in an increase in fender benders and for those running it there were higher speeds recorded because it was a choice of speed up to make it or slam your brakes.

Circling back around the speed cameras...when I think about it, I have never seen one placed anywhere that people cross the roads. Ironically they're always down the street or past crosswalks even though they're supposedly in existence for safety.

Is it bad MD drivers or bad PA roads? I do think most MD drivers suck and I grew up in MD. But I think MD drivers are also accustomed to well-marked roads. Shoot, the Capital Beltway (I would say beltway, except Baltimore has one too) is actually banked on both the road and exits to prevent accidents. My civil engineer/planning friends have told me it's quite rare. So it's not too surprising to hear what you're saying.

Cameras still do squat prevention wise.

Fyi
I currently have a 125 $ red light ticket. Sister was driving my pickup. She claimed it was a fast yellow. With the ticket they send you a login to view the 30 second video clip of the violation. Not only did she not even attempt to slow down, but she clearly sped up.

Amazes me how people make a concious decision to break laws every single day, and once in a blue moon they get caught and then piss and moan about it. Suck a fluff NukEvil. You got caught, just deal with it.

Actually, if you read my first post, you would have known that I haven't received a citation or anything else in the mail about it; therefore, I did not get caught.

I guess lack of reading comprehension is normal in people whose parents are siblings. It never ceases to amaze me why we haven't yet embraced eugenics to stop this sort of thing from happening.

You would be surprised how often these devices aren't calibrated appropriately: http://www.gazette.net/...609/OPINION/706099964&;template=gazette .

The other big issue is when they reduce speed limits or tinker with the timing of lights. I went back to the town I grew up in the other week to find that they dropped the speed limit from 40 to 25 mph on a road that had no new development, no record of crashes and quite frankly nothing different on the road except a speed camera.

Question if i may. Are there points assessed with the red light tickets? or do you just pay the fine and it goes on your record for a very long time??? I haven't received one as of yet . Knock on wood. so i wouldn't know. I don't know anyone who has gotten one except on here.

If you didn't run red lights, you wouldn't get a ticket. If people know they will get a ticket at a particular intersection, they will break on the yellow rather than accelerate, as most of us do. With less people going through the intersection on yellow or all-red, there is a reduction in conflict movements where a T-bone might occur.

Head-on collisions cause more deaths and injuries than T-bones, but T-bones are much more common.

The reduction in accidents can be show to be statistically valve by using distributed model of historic collision rates and severity over a 7-year period.

If you are in the intersection prior to the light turning red, you will not receive a ticket, as it's legal to clear the intersection. If you have any other concerns about their operation or effectiveness, hit me up in a PM, I design transit and transportation infrastruction for a living.

You should be happy about the revenue all those ticket generate, as they pay for road improvements instead of using general tax dollars.

out here they added a mobile cam , they set up in a van with special equipment and a cop and sit there with the computer, cameras and radar and snap pics and sent tickets... can you say BIG BROTHER!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Monderman

http://www.spiegel.de/...gel/0,1518,448747,00.html

Traffic laws are all about revenue, for both the state and the insurance companies, which in turn pay the state.

/lol

In grade school one of our school mates got hit by a car who ran through a red light. She died a few day after the hit and run in the hospital.

The driver got away and was never caught.

Maybe traffic light cameras are put into service due to intentions of increasing revenues. In my opinion, that is just stupid. That should not be the reason.

Though, I wouldn't of mind a traffic light camera to catch the guy who killed our friend.

Maybe everyone should learn to drive safer, and accept waiting at red lights vs attempting to speed through them? Or you could take your chances and hope there isn't some child walking across the street?