I know what he did to other alliances...


2011-02-18 02:27:16 SS old golden age (#598) LaF If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm 320A (675A)
2011-02-18 02:20:48 PS ashes to ashes (#443) LaF T34 FTW (#359) Paradigm 453A (933A)
2011-02-18 02:18:02 PS ashes to ashes (#443) LaF Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm 428A (813A)
2011-02-17 21:28:21 PS n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF DH
2011-02-17 17:07:15 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Tank you come again (#57) Paradigm DH
2011-02-17 17:06:36 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 245A (615A)
2011-02-17 17:04:49 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 255A (636A)
2011-02-17 16:47:50 SS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 282A (638A)
2011-02-17 16:46:52 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 355A (854A)
2011-02-17 09:01:32 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 562A (937A)
2011-02-17 03:57:16 PS ashes to ashes (#443) LaF n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm 537A (997A)
2011-02-17 03:47:31 PS ashes to ashes (#443) LaF SRs T72 (#161) Paradigm 467A (969A)
2011-02-17 00:48:10 PS old golden age (#598) LaF Atlantis (#277) Paradigm 501A (957A)
2011-02-16 23:26:00 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Tank you come again (#57) Paradigm 328A (775A)
2011-02-16 17:57:32 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm 408A (898A)
2011-02-16 17:56:43 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Tank you come again (#57) Paradigm 388A (866A)
2011-02-16 16:59:54 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm 329A (722A)
2011-02-16 16:53:56 SS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Septic Tank (#285) Paradigm 233A (467A)
2011-02-14 03:39:10 PS D e a t h B y D a s C C C P (#118) LaF SRs T72 (#161) Paradigm 689A (895A)
2011-02-14 00:00:15 PS n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm old golden age (#598) LaF 435A (638A)
2011-02-13 20:21:25 PS old golden age (#598) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 339A (625A)
2011-02-13 14:07:11 PS McMurdo Dry Valleys (#45) LaF n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm DH
2011-02-13 00:44:55 SS SRs T72 (#161) Paradigm D e a t h B y D a s C C C P (#118) LaF 435A (618A)
2011-02-11 17:48:02 PS ReDflag (#120) LaF Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm 548A (797A)
2011-02-11 00:02:33 SS Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm tr0utwaffle (#572) LaF 302A (451A)


That is our news for the set before his second grab... you sure seem to have taken it as an invitation that we weren't pacted (which you say you never considered us to have one so I am not sure what you're trying to imply there anyways) before #449 really did anything...

you pissed off some of our members by topfeed our all-x twice.

they decided to grab you guys.

then you guys got all pissy and refused to pact us even after i asked you multiple times.

it's so fluffing straightforward and you still want to dish out the conspiracy theories.

like i said the more you continue down this path, the more hopeless it is.

It is so fluffing straightforwrd.

We grabbed you twice (not intentionally as evidenced by me contacting you).

A whole bunch of unrelated countries then hit us because they wanted our land.

We were unhappy because you guys pull this stunt all the time and we would have prepared for it if you hadn't been so conniving.

We wanted a pact as long as we were repaid - we wanted you to treat us like we were actually allies - not like you just wanted to make off with our land. You never addressed that.

I am sorry you were apparently too busy to actually mention paying us back and only had time to post the news of my guys grabbing you now and again as a result of you farming us... I wish you would just admit that it is your fault.


2011-02-11 04:14:03 PS Natural Selection (#152) EVOosso ashes to ashes (#443) LaF 197A (327A)
2011-02-10 03:25:46 PS Natural Selection (#152) EVOosso ashes to ashes (#443) LaF 336A (437A)
2011-02-10 03:24:13 SS Natural Selection (#152) EVOosso ashes to ashes (#443) LaF DH

Evo hit you three times before we hit you twice... why didn't your members go ape fluff against them? They hit you more than us!

the first two hits where by you.

the third hit:

2011-02-13 14:07:11 PS McMurdo Dry Valleys (#45) LaF n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm DH

is a retal for

Feb 12/11 7:02:42 PM PS n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) (Paradigm) McMurdo Dry Valleys (#45) (FRIGID) 592 A (+207 A)

so you hit us first (but he was untagged so not your fault technically).


2011-02-14 00:00:15 PS n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) Paradigm old golden age (#598) LaF 435A (638A)

2011-02-13 20:21:25 PS old golden age (#598) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 339A (625A)

we hit you, you retaled and benefited.

2011-02-14 03:39:10 PS D e a t h B y D a s C C C P (#118) LaF SRs T72 (#161) Paradigm 689A (895A)

was the retal for drow's mistake on grabbing us.

at that point some of the LaF members wrote on our private forums asking "are we pacted? how come they grabbing us so much"

to which i told them "no"

so they started to grab you guys.

then that's when the FR talks started and we never worked it out.

what really made it impossible to work it out was #449's continued transgressions (retaling other uninvolved countries by PS and spy ops. random topfeeds) that added fuel to the fire.

like i said straight forward.

should've kicked his #449's sorry ass out and killed him instead of killing #36. i would've done the same if i was in your shoes, and then if LaF was still bullying the fluff out of me then i can claim for mercy on AT because LaF were being douches.

you only contacted me for drow's hit, not #449's.

that was completely intentional. it is clear as day that he wanted escalated PDM/LaF tensions.

and we did try to go "apefluff" on evo, but they actually resolved it fairly with me unlike you guys. you can ask anoniem yourself.

like i said it wasn't PDM targetted as you guys keep on thinking it was.

So how was PDM unfair? I contacted you so what part of my contact was unfair?

those were retals anyway

Feb 08/11 6:11:26 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) Natural Selection (#152) () 45 A (+15 A)
Feb 08/11 6:10:44 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) Natural Selection (#152) () 68 A (+39 A)
Feb 08/11 6:09:25 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) Natural Selection (#152) () 72 A (+40 A)
Feb 08/11 6:08:34 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) Natural Selection (#152) () 92 A (+63 A)
Feb 08/11 6:08:17 AM PS ashes to ashes (#443) (LaF) Natural Selection (#152) () 112 A (+7

i didn't say you were unfair. i just said #449 was the douchebag and the powder keg. i was also saying you not accepting my pact after i asked multiple times around the 2/18-2/19 timeframe as why it was escalating more and more to the point of where it is today.

we should just talk on IRC instead. find a place.. this AT back and forth is getting old

Despite ignoring me for 36? hours (i forget how long, but an annoyingly long amount of time) when the suicide originally occured, when you did finally respond, you asked how much was owed by the pact (i assume you remember this).

I gave you the individual break down, country by country. The first thing you said, is you'll take it back to pdm, but i should know that pdm wont pay that much.

The next day you came back to me, indeed confirming you would not pay the amount owed, and outright refusing to pay any reps in the form of cash or bushels, as was required by the pact. Instead offering pure land reperations.

At this point, i got quite annoyed and reminded you we did indeed have a pact which states quite clearly the terms underwhich reps had to be repaid, and you said yes well although we signed it, the pact is unreasonable.

Please, tell me if i'm wrong about any of that sequence of events.

Eventually i accepted 200% L:L or something along those lines, despite doing the calcs, and figuring it would lose us near 80m nw. To which several of my members were pissed about, but i couldnt be bothered to kill pdm over this so i said i would compensate them with my own country if they really wanted (this is what good leaders do, hint hint)

Tan then futher took multiple days to come back to me with even a target to hit (futher losing us nw) and when he did come back to me, came back with 3? countries to hit, all of them small land wise, and when they owed a substantial amount of acers it was bordering on not on not paying at all. I comunicated to him (probably not in the most mild mannered of terms) that i was not happy with the amount of countries, and he had to provide more which TAN accepted, he said though that no one in pdm was willing to offer their country for reps but he would look for more. The nothing from tan again for awhile, i think they added one more small country eventually, but still by this stage we had lost over 150m nw when originally i had agreed to what i thought would be an 80m nw loss.

I told tan, to tell pdm's leadership to put up their countries for farming, because i felt pdm was trying to stiff us. Tan refused, and said he was going to reduce the total amount of reps owed to us anyway, and if we hit any more than some arbritary number he made up, it would be retaled. I told him flat out take responsibility for your members, or i will fs pdm. To which he went off on one, we had some big arguement (pretty much the arguement we had been having for days) im sure i called him a tool along with many other things during that time.

Tan said the next day anymore hits would be retaled, because i called him a tool, i said you realise we'll have to fs you if you dont pay the reps, he said do what you have to do, pdm wont pay any more.

LaF ended up losing over 200m nw from thatguy's suicides. PDM had 3(maybe 4 i forget if the last guy got hit much/at all) sub 15k countries farmed for a few days. They subsequently lost their pact with LaF, and were fs'd and tag killed. They then fs'd laf the following reset, and were tag killed again.

In this time tan managed to go through about 10 different laf leaders, starting off with, i dont mind you its the reset of your leadership i hate. And ending in fluff you're unreasonable too. Pretty much alienating every LaF leader no matter whether they were ia, fr, war, in the matter of two resets.

And look, i can see why people wont get along with me, i have a fairly rough negotiating style, but falling out with people like parallax is almost impossible yet he managed it.

i can see your point SS. i successfully negotiated with everyone in this server this reset except for PDM.

i thought you were just being too tough on PDM, but in reality for PDM it's really them having a epic fail FA team.

so they can rotate now to the next LaF leader after me, and we'll see if they can work it out again...

history has proven no, but maybe discussing this long enough in open air without any pretense might actually work something out hopefully

I was a d-bag? Towards the end of negosiations, yes i was, because i was pissed and really i was almost done with pdm in general. The basis of this was however, i dont like having to repeat myself, when PDM signed the pact, they agreed to how reps should be paid if things like this occured, you flat out refused to pay the reps as the pact said. I had never said anything to TAN other than how much was owed when this occured.

So you may say i was being a douche, but really am i being a douche for expecting a unap to abide by their pact?
I was douche after that because pdm tried to stiff LaF and i accepted it, just to avoid having to war you. And you still complained and whined about it, even though as far as im concerned i let you off a huge amount of reps. You wernt greatful you didnt even acknowledge i was doing anything to your benefit. After this, i lost my rag with tan. I know that, but at the same time, i wouldnt appologise for it. Tan took the complete piss when it came to that reps deal.

then keep waring them set after set seems like that is what is going to happen

Umm, actually, it won't really be called 'warring' as much as it will be called 'farming'...Right now, LaF is sitting pretty, and still netting, despite PDM's 'efforts' to make LaF do otherwise.

good. if that's what you want instead of fixing it, then stop complaining about this reset.

Ironic as it is, I'm the one that agreed to a multi set pact with PDM in the hopes of improving relations. heh.

I'm still questioning why PDM won't acknowledge the harmops by 449 at all, just because he didn't get caught, doesn't mean he didn't do it. Because with all the networth change time sheets, we actually proved that it was him.

if he's such a new member, then why protect him?

Because Evo did the same thing back in 2009 when someone in LaF FAed that suicider that suicided us that reset. We had pages of networth change analysis proving a LaF country FAed it, and you all started using words like "indisputable" to say that all the proof we had meant nothing.

forgotten: we have acknowledged them.

we also acknowledge a lack of contact from both sides led to this escalation.
I have no issues with the retal on me, nor would I have had any probs with LaF farming 449, who was freely offered to them for farming as a result of his actions.
this all occurred before the hits from 594.
594 then triple tapped, and got hit 42 times in response after being blamed for 449's spy ops, and being set to farm without even a contact to us.
Rockman already pointed that out.
the worst transgressor of the farming on 594 was who we killed.
the n00b who caused this in the first place, #449, is still getting his ass kicked, by everyone from his division leader up.
han: have whoever is in FA talk to me next set. I'm happy to let things go, and try for a fresh start.
a lot of fluff happened this set which could have been mitigated/solved by better/more contact on both sides of the fence.
we're just as much to blame as LaF.
It also takes both sides to sort stuff out.
I'm willing to take a step back if LaF are.

Drow
PDM Senator

or message via ee boards or boxcar boards.

thanks you. i agree whole-heartedly.

we both had our wrongdoings, and the best way is to take a step back and start fresh

i just hope all of LaF and PDM feel the same way as me and you do however.

realistically, we BOTH know that there will always be members with probs. More to the point, I hope enough of both clans have had enough, and can get past it.
My sole real problem with LaF stemmed from the thatguy incident, when ss demanded we pay reps even though he had been detagged from PDM over 72 hours, we genuinely had no idea he was going to suicide, he just told us he was quitting, and I'm about 80% sure we pitched in to kill him as well. My point of contention back then was that he had been outside of PDM for over 3 days, the recognised standard at that point, so why were we still being held to reps?

Anyways, again, it's old ass fluff, not even the same server, let's try this peace thing again.

just add me on MSN. i added your hotmail address and we can chat.

i don't know about thatguy's incident but from reading h4's original post, and being the head of FR in the first incident with in 2003, i recall being told "fluff off" by comwood when asked for reps for GoSu's transgressions.

i'm assuming after a point, LaF in general trusted your ability to make right on your member's suicides less and less.

everyone will have members who suicide and cause problems. the problem is having a history of taking responsibility for it. if you have a history of not taking responsibility for your actions, and this time around you just take 70% of your responsibility, i'm pretty sure it's just as good as not taking any responsibility.

"but officer! i realized i used to sell 10 grams of crack each of the last two times you caught me. this time it was only 3 grams! 70% less!"

i wrote LaF's history for my time there in the late 90s to 2003. after which i became don of LaF and didn't have time to update LaF's history and no one bothered to update it since then.

read this:

http://www.lafamiglia.org/historypub.htm#may03

"In the end, despite all these fireworks, we captured tne ANW/TNW titles 4 top 10 spots (or 5, if you count Genovese) and 31 (or 34 if you count Genovese again) top 100 spots, in another classic LaF netgaining finish. One thing that peeved us however was GoSu (a paradigm member), suiciding on a lot of our top 10ers, shaping our next reset...
"

and

http://www.lafamiglia.org/historypub.htm#aug03

"We started off 1B TNW and 145 members, and PDM was 155 members and 800M TNW (they are a solid top 10 alliance). By the end of the reset, we were still on the ANW and TNW charts with almost 2B tnw and 28M ANW, while PDM finished with 136M tnw. It was an extremely lopsided war and a pretty decisive victory because PDM could not touch our top rankers, with LaF placing many in the top 500 even by the end of the reset, with one top 100 (Don Hanlong). We also had 3 veteran LaFfers tagged up Genovese (a LaF division) in the top 15 (two of them top 10).
"

you guys were a 155 member alliance at one point. one of the big dogs. LDPed to LaF. then you decided you were so badass that you didn't need to pay reps anymore.

and therein started PDM slow descent to the bottom. you need to realize what you did wrong and fix your mistakes instead of repeatedly using a policy that has led to the downfall of your alliance.

i'm not trying to say this to diss PDM or put them down. i'm saying this because i want PDM to understand that they need to change their policies if they want to survive.

aye, but paying 70% reps for someone who even by LaF's policy at the time was no longer our responsibility as he had already long been detagged?
That's the part SS likes to miss, and what I had the issue with.
Will add you to MSN when I get home, back to phone surfing atm as I am on my way in to work.

you guys ever going to stop arguing?

oh maybe SS was taking too much of a hardline approach.

SS was a new member in 2003. i think his first reset playing the alliance server was when i was Don (somewhere around that time).

his first experience in this alliance game was seeing PDM shafting us over.

you have to realize why he doesn't like PDM too much and why he probably took such a hardline approach.

just like my first experience playing alliance server was seeing RoCK fluffing us up. good thing RoCK isn't an alliance anymore ;)

Isn't this to be expected when you use harmful spy ops as retals?

Most people would rather give up 3k tech than 3k land in the first month of the reset; it's an accountability issue. Based on the news, who was hanlong supposed to believe did the ops? If your member doesnt fail any ops and doesnt send a message, how is hanlong to know they are retals? Whats stopping your member from doing 100 ops? Or 1000? The nw change proof is nice but its not lafs responsibility to prove which one of your countries is doing retals if you want to avoid confusion. Additionaly, if you didn't have a policy allowing harmful spy ops, he may have assumed it was unrelated to any hits.

I want to point out that I'm not anti-pdm nor pro-laf, just against a policy that allows harmful ops as retals without even sending a message. I'm glad to see pdm seems committed to changing this. If anything, I'd be anti-laf because they tagged up multiple tks countries to ninja tnw from ucn during my only reset as ucns sec of strat (and then they had anw ninjad by coa, teehee).

this is the thing though. We didn't know about the ops initially, and hanlong himself admitted they farmed the wrong person for it. I agree harmful ops as a form of retal is silly, which is why it's being changed. We had no probs with retals on 594, which should have stopped at 6:3 or at around 5k acres.
Still not sure what the hell was going on with #449, apart from being a massive n00b. He shouldn't have been using ops in the first place, which is why he's still in the fluff.

we got back to 150 when we came to EC from 1a, then started sliding from the slit wars onward again.

We've gone for a radical change in policy in recent times to try and allow grabbers opportunity to have multiple targets to grab, rather than the same 4 untag countries all set (yes I am exaggerating, but I am sure everyone gets my point :P), and also to move away from the l:l that i personally feel strangles grabbing in and of itself as the country retalling pretty much always comes out in front. I want to encourage a system where the grab and retal can go both ways, sometimes the grabber wins, sometimes the retaller, with an element of skill required to be great at it.

haha I remember that situation all too well as well Noto.
I was taking over as Don the coming reset, and was not overly pleased with the idea of having to fight UCN my first reset in charge.

But then the RD stuff happened and yeah... the UCN vs. LaF war never materialized.

He was either not detagged 72 hours, or he had vacationed, putting the 72 hour grace period on hold by the pact terms i cant remember which. Either way his suicided was definately still covered under pdm's responsibility under the pact terms.

There was no disputing it, tan didnt even dispute it, i dunno why you are now.

And i joined laf when TL disbanded and joined arrow mid-reset when slowme was don, although half way through he went inactive and you and xin became co don's. If i remember right.

well it was a little more circuitous than that, h4

the next reset was the big 6 gangbang on elites

i was blamed by fin for leaking the info about who was getting hit (EDge later admitted to being the one that leaked)

scarlet approached me with an invitation to RD if i killed fins country with multis, i turned him down but when fin did get hit by multis later he somehow managed to get his hands on that conversation and assumed it was me (which is why i exposed scarlet...then later founded an alliance with him for the lulz)

this led to fin more generally insulting RD and cheaters on AT, which led to things heating up between ronnie and fin, which led to ronnie making sure ucn was no more

that's because finny wanted to withhold his great satan reputation ;)

so who all thinks h4 owes us some land for past good deeds eh?

Lets not kid slit didnt ruin pdm, PDM were a fairly decent alliance atleast on the border of top tier, although their member count was not made up of as large a proportion of long term vets as most alliances, up until the SoF vs PDM pre-arranged war, where pdm were embarrassed. Their membership took a huge hit the next reset (down 40 members if i remember right?) and have been on the decline pretty much every reset following that.

This is, surprisingly, the only 100% correct thing SS has posted in a very long time. As I recall, thatguy went into vacation before the 72 requisite hours of being untagged.

Everyone seems to think that I did nothing to try to improve relations between us, which is wrong. I am surprised Pang isn't saying more to defend me. As I recall, I gave him forewarning of a few potential suiciders, and I think I actually joined in on one or two of their KRs.

But no good deed is ever remembered; only bad deeds are recorded in the annals of history.

nah, we came out of slit at 80, so just over half what we went into slit at, came out of ix at 60, stayed steady at around that through tie/pdm v sol/ix, then slipped again after SoF v PDM. There was internal stuff going on @ same time which didn't help any. But the SoF failure really did hurt.