Now, rebuttal time.



They weren't. Most of them came from Saudi Arabia, one of America's closest allies. All of the hijackers that crashed the planes into the Twin Towers were Saudis. They not only had Islam in common, but also had being Saudi in common as well.



This will invalidate almost everything you said subsequent to this, but in fact, everything you've mentioned is political. They use religion as an excuse to gain sympathy and support. It's called "brainwashing."

Let's start with Hezbollah. Bombing American soldiers in a base in Lebanon - their homeland - isn't terrorism. If you're going to use that logic, then war is terrorism - and I could agree with that. Moreover, many Christians in Lebanon actually support Hezbollah.

Hamas? Granted, they have committed terrorist acts in the past, but it's politically-motivated. They aren't actually trying to kill off all the Jews, which is impossible even if they wanted to. Their objective is to liberate their homeland. This is political, not religious. It's about territories and borders. 10% of Palestinians are Christian, and they also want...you know...this thing called a state.

The Taliban? Those guys are the scum of the earth. I'm not going to defend them. But what they are doing is also politically motivated - they are trying to kick NATO forces out of their homeland.

Al-Qaeda are also scum, but they are also politically motivated. If you actually bothered to do rudimentary research from at least semi-objective sources, you'd see their main grievances are: 1) American bases and military in Arab territories, 2) American support for Middle Eastern dictators - such as Mubarak, King Abdullah (both Jordan and Saudi (Saudi is where Bin Laden is from)) and others. 3) Rabid support of Israel.

If Al Qaeda were religiously motivated to kill all "infidels," then why are they killing their fellow Saudis? Why are they killing their fellow Iraqis? Food for thought.



The most recent thing I can remember is the Californian man who was just arrested a few days ago parked in front of a mosque in Detroit. Yes, the man was retardedly deluded enough to think a car full of m-80s could blow up a mosque, but he had intent, and he's a religiously-motivated terrorist. There's your example, and it's one from 2011.

I won't mention the IRA, the KKK, or the EDL either.

Yes, you will call them crazy - and that's MY point.



The Crusades were partially religious, but there were heavy political motives to it as well. Many went there to grab land, like the occupation of Constantinople or seizing lands through the whole of the Levant.

I'm not even going to get into the rest - I would actually have to do research to back specific points, and I can't be bothered. Do your own research instead of making ignorant arguments.

Due to what I've already mentioned, the rest of your argument is moot. You were wrong in almost everything you said.

Do some more research please, starting with reading a book without an obviously biased agenda. I can offer recommendations if you'd like.

Pimpang,

Hitler was nut theory? You really want to excuse what he did with the Hitler was nuts theory?
Should we excuse every person in power that committs mass murder and just claim them to be nuts?

The fact is Christian Theology was Blatently anti Jewish for centuries, and only the Holocaust forced us to relook at what we teach and how it poisons the waters.

I call the extermination of 5M Jews, Mass murder, Hitler was a Christian, we may not like it, but he was.

I find what he did to minority groups, Jews, and members of the GLBT community to be much worse than anything we've seen in the last 10 years.

Tread carefully. Hitler was a fascist who was a fundamentalist in his beliefs....Fundamentalism is the issue.

And actually you are on step 2 of the radicalization process allready:)
It goes like this.

Step 1.- Claim you have the only truth.
Step 2.- Begin speaking against other groups b/c they are wrong, b/c only you have the truth. At this point it is impossible to reason discuss, but its falls outside of the truth. You are exhibiting this quite well so far.
Step 3.- Begin is where actions start becoming violent.
Burning a bible or a Koran, burning the other's holy books
Step4- Begin attacking Holy sites/locations- We've seen this in the US recently with the beginning of attacks on Mosques, we're not far from what you say hasn't happened. Oh and I'd qualify Bombing an abortion clinic as a step 4 reaction also. (Which you claim hasn't happened.)

Step 5- Kill others b/c they don't have the truth.
Its coming:( here in the US. Which is why I'm doing all I can do to build interfaith bridges before it happens.

and AMerican Christians have done thsi to abortion doctors. So don't tell me we aren't capable.

Take away claiming to have the only truth which is step 1, and steps 2-5 don't happen. And yes there is great academic research on this subject, to back up my claims.

I'd continue arguing with you, bt its pointless, you are at step 2, and are beyond the ability to reason.

On these forums, its called Deerhunter syndrome:)

"Goose-Stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them!"

Heston,

I'm an ordained Minister in an established Mainline Denomination in the US, doing a startup,

I am a universalist, in that I believe all people are going to heaven.
I believe that all religions have a path that points to God, and are a result of evolving in their time and place.

Our startup, has people involved who are from 2 completely different religions (non-christians ones, well known ones)
We are not requiring them to "convert" to be a part of us, instead we learn from each other, and partner together to making a difference.

So you are entirely wrong.
I am not alone, there's a growing group of people who believe simiarly, and younger adults are responding exceptionally well to these ideas.

Look up the Bahai Faith:) its UNiversalistic
Look up UNitarianism, its UNiversalistic
Look up Buddhism- its univerasalistic
there aer Universal groups in every major world religion.

Oh and btw:) usually they tend towards pacifism, creation care, and are against everything you are against:)

Being against "religion" is just an excuse to avoid having to wrestle with it.
Now if you want to argue from an Atheistic point of view, that's different, I can respect that. That leaves room for debate, an inaccurate total completely dismissal does not.

I would love to converse with you, as I do think you are reasonable and capable of reasoned debate:) Unlike Pimpthang
ICQ= 32262071

Servant

hitler might have been a christian and he might have flown with the whole god favours us thing, but his christianity isn't why he did a single thing that he did (except maybe attending church as a child, i think they might be directly linked)

Braden is right and Servant is missing the plot. Hitler didnt kill all those people for religious beliefs. THE ONLY thing you said that i wold agree with is the people blowing up and few killings of abortion clinics. The fact that hitler was a christian does not mean he murdered in the name of christ. People who do things for racial motivation. And Servant you are saying that the suicide bombings are political and they leaders just brainwash the muslims into doing their dirty work? Well, i find no other religion doing that. You have failed to understand the question and have at best (with abortion clinic) come just slightly close to finding one example. But you failed.

What I'm saying is all Religions are capable of it.
What I'm saying is Islam is not the issue.

And that we are no better than them.

The issue is NOT Islam.
The issue is Fundamentalism. In particular Radicalized Fundamentalism, though that could be eliminated with the elimination of a fundamentalist viewpoint:)

And if you want to point towards Islam as the issue than how the hell are we going to create peace?
But if Fundamentalism is the issue, that gives us a lot of room to work with the majority of the people of the Islamic world who are not radicalized Fundamentalists.

I am saying, that when people believe their truth is the only truth. They can demonize other, and treat them as lower and less than themselves. This is an issue of all religions.

This allows one to commit atrocities.

And we have multiple Christian groups on the path of radicalization right here in the United States. (a Crazy group in Kansas comes to mind, burning of the Quran's comes to mind, and the process where we are seeing defacing of Islamic houses of worship.


I hope I am wrong, and years from now someone can make fun of me for this stance, but all I am trying to say is Islam is not the issue,
Fundamentalism is.

If you really want to do some research on this I can suggest some books:)

I never once disputed what was happening.

What I disputed was that cause was not Islam, but Fundamentalism.
Now, none of your examples have disproved my stance. As all the people who have committed the atrocities (suicide bombings) in the Islamic world are radicalized Fundamentalists.

I also stated that all religions are capable of doing the same thing, and most have if not all have in their history had radicalized fundamentalists kill others in the name of God and for the truth of God.

looks like the government is getting ready to attack the protesters. They're systematically shutting down the media around the square. : (

I hope they dont attact them. I hope the people of egypt kick out his but and can find a way to have peace in their country- as a free country.

Servant, i agree every religion is capable of it- but in the last couple hundred years it seems like only islam is doing it. And as far as other religious groups burning the koran ect- well, i think that is their way of fighting back- a peaceful way mind you. They are not out killing they are burning a book they bought and paid for- and who knows, maybe they were doing it to stay warm. I am a christian. If a person who was muslim was burning a bible or a cross, while i would not like it i would not want to harm them. I dont believe god would want people to kill for something so dumb as burning a book. Its a book. I think that is the major difference with that religion and all others. when other religions get attacked they make a peaceful protest like burning a book. When islam is attacked (like the cartoon artist who made fun of mohammid) muslims kill the people or anyone like them attacking their faith.

Why is it that pre-9/11 nobody gave a fluff about the so called "Islamic Fundamentalism" and "Terrorism"? Why is that the US supported regimes that killed and raped their own people only a daily basis and only stopped when their puppets turned on them?

Osama.
Pakistan.
Taliban.
Saddam.

Those are a few notable examples of the terrorists and cruel dictators that the US supported in recent times. Then when their puppets decided that they wanted their own "thing", they suddenly became the Axis of Evil and were used as scrapegoats to distract the American public from its internal problems. Back then it worked. However after the collapse of the housing sector it became too big to ignore even with the daily brainwashing attempts by the US Media.

________________________________

@ PimpThang. Even though you're set on demonizing Islam, I'll offer my own counter arguments regardless of your mindset. I know you're not looking for the truth, you're just here to troll.

1. Suicide bombing. - Let's look at why so called terrorist groups are using it. Is it because it's effective? Obviously. Why is it that low level operatives (aka cannon fodder) are always the ones killings themselves whereas the high level leaders never get involved other than the planning/supply phase.

Is it because they're any less qualified or less devout in so called "faith"? No, it's simply because they're cowards. They use brainwashed and impressionable youths to kill themselves to achieve their political and military goals. Maximum (terror) results with minimum cost/effort.

Does Islam say that suicide is permissible? Hell no, it's stated clearly in the Quran and confirmed by top religious scholars who've spent their lives studying the religious sources (Quran and Hadith) that Suicide is fluffed up and anyone who commits that act goes to hell regardless of his intentions. Not to mention that killing women and children is totally against the faith even under war conditions.

2. Islamic radicals are top in the news post-9/11. You hear about some "Muslim" radical killing people every day supposedly for their religion - You must live the in the US or certain parts of Europe. In Asia and the rest of the world, our media aren't as biased and intentionally demonizing other countries to further our Politicians fluff propaganda. The US media fanned the hate towards Afghanistan and Iraq BEFORE they went in. Bush knew that without popular support by the brainwashed masses, he'd be fluffed up and wouldn't be able to get reelected. Heck, the 9/11 attacks were a big bonus in his eyes to his re-election chances.

Why else would he continually press the US to attack Iraq after Afghanistan, for non-existent WMDs that the best people in the world; military, special ops, intel, have never seen a trace of post-invasion? One word, OIL. Sure the US has it own significant stockpiles and supply (and much more if they carve up Alaska as well) but that's just a drop of water in the bucket compared to the Middle East oil stockpiles controlled by their puppets.

3. Burning holy books - Sure you can burn whatever you want. I don't really care, sure I may hate the ignorant intentions behind it but I don't want your head on a platter for it. Heck, when the Qurans are damaged Muslims are supposed to dispose of them via several methods, one of which is BURNING. Only those ignorant fags from impoverished countries who claim that they're Muslims are actually indignant over this. They're the same peeps who carry out backwards tribal practices that are mistaken as religious duties and give Islam a bad name.

4. Muslims are mostly Arabs. - This is the general assumption. This is obviously wrong. Only a small portion (around 20%) of Muslims are from the Middle East, the majority are from Asia. Indonesia alone accounts for nearly 200 million so called "Muslims".

5. Saudis are the "best" examples of Muslims. - Just because the holy sites of Islam are in Saudi Arabia itself, it doesn't mean everything they do is correct and follows the teachings. A lot of what they do is part of their Arabic culture and mentality and shouldn't be considered of Islamic teachings. A prime example is the Saudi Royal family which rules SA. They're morally corrupt due to their immense wealth. You'd be hard press to find a real muslim among them. It doesn't mean all Saudis are bad, it's the elite and powerful few who give the rest a bad name. They are after all, one of the few remaining loyal puppets.

What is wrong with the US acting or supporting people and governments to further their own interests? Why do you hate us for that? We are not your problem- if you dont like your gov- get rid of it as the people in Egypt are doing. Dont hate appreciate. I agree with a lot of what you said there except i dont see anything wrong in any nation acting for their own good.If the saudis are our puppets as you say dont you think they are because they think they are gaining something from it?

Its funny when Iraq invaded peaceful Kuait, all the other mid east country's were begging for the US to step in and save them from the boogie man. We do and then they act like weve taken something from them.We dont want your land- keep the sand. If you dont like your puppets govs then get rid of them- but dont hate on us because we act in our own interest.


And i fully realize that most muslims are in asia- after all most people in the world are there. Doesnt change anything about my argument.

"They are not out killing they are burning a book they bought and paid for- and who knows, maybe they were doing it to stay warm."

some old german dude, well before nazism came along, said something to the effect of where they burn books they will eventually burn people.

(coal works better for keeping warm than either of the other two)

Refers back to my steps of radicalizaton.

Pimpthang, I said you were at phase 2, demonizingh others, unable to rationally talk,
and you are allready condoning step 3- burning holy books of the other....

Hate of the other, in the name of truth, Does not bring about the vision of all the major prophets (including the one I follow, jesus). It is an antithesis to all of them.

PS
thanks for ceding the argument and basically agreeing that Fundamentalism not the Islamic Faith is not the issue.

Now, we can ask teh real question, how do we create a world without fundamentalistic religion, in any of our world religions.

You are wrong again Servant- What i was saying that people can burn books as a PROTEST and not hate the people they are protesting. Understand? Ya, i knew you wouldnt. For some people they seek to protest what the other group (muslims suicide bombers) is doing, yet they dont want to condone, advocate, or perform any violent acts- they just want to protest against the other group. They might try to do it in the most shocking (but peaceful) way possible- IE book burning. Now, i dont think id ever be a part of something like that- however- were it up to me and i was holding muslim terrorists in a prision- i would feed them nothing but pork and would not let them watch tv or have their koran. I dont think any terrorist, murder, or traitor deserves these rights.


You can call it an issue of fundamentalistic religion, but the only religion that is killing people is islam.

Yeah, Hitler burned books too:)

That's how it started, oh let's burn the books that we disagree with, since that's a peaceful way to say that we don't like that group. yeah we don't hate them.

heh.

Burning any groups holy and sacred book is just wrong.

You wouldn't want a muslim group burning the bible, any more than they want a christian fundamentalist burning the Koran.


Now, understand, Christianity underwent a violent and major change following the creation of the Printing Press.
A revolution of scholarship followed.

As a result,The majory of Christians no longer take the Christian Sciptures Literally.

Literalism is a requirement for Fundamentalism.


Just as the Script-Print revoliution changed Christianity.

The Print-Digital revolution will change Islam.

Its going to take a long time,
Its going to be bloody.
When its all said and done Many area historically Islamic may be disallusioned, just as Europe is disallusioned with Chritianity.

As Modern Scholarship Methods are applied to the Koran just as it has been to Christian Scripture, a new type of Moderate/liberal belief system will emerge.

That is what we ought to be encouraging.

Not burning the book, but respecting it and using Scholarship to promote different ways of understanding.
You build trust through relationships. Not through actions of hate. Acts of hate, and yes burning anyone's holy book is an act of hate, only breeds acts of Hate.

I assume you are a follower of Jesus,
Jesus' actions, and teaching clearly demonstrate love is more powerful than hate.
Love only happens through relationships,
which are only possible with respect.


Islam is also about 600 years younger than Christianity, but is about the same age approximately when Christianity underwent its revolution through critical scholarship.

Lots of parallels:)

Given time, Democracy will flourish in Arabic area's.
At first it won't look like ours at all.
Slowly it will moderate.
Over time, this time of violence will pass, as people begin to grow sick of the violence, and they will.


I totally support the rights of the people to a democratic system. And even if it hurts our power, and influence, it is the right thing. Even if it causes long term provlems. It is the right thing, over time, eventually, love and justice will prevail and people will demand a modereate democracy.
It may take a century.
But it'll happen

what's the update?

i need some kindling to start my campfire, is it ok if i burn some newspaper? it's not like it's really any kind of important information...

There is a fire in my pants and only dibs can put it out.

you want people to throw money at your pants?

i don't understand this.
all people are going to heaven?
the path is guaranteed?
to me that's the reincarnation dealy-bob. you were born to suffer on this planet until you get it right, then, and only then will we allow you access to heaven, we don't technically care if it takes you one billion years to get it right, because we have complete faith that once it's drummed into your head enough times even a moron could follow our explicit instructions that we never actually state.

the real questions come into play when you realize that you only have like 100 years of life to decide how you want to spend eternity. 100 years, if you're lucky, and you live all of your life without getting angry enough to actually violate our ten commandments, we will grant you an Eternity of Bliss... because well, you've demonstrated that you ain't going to piss in our living room once you get here.

debates about faith are exactly debating santa claus' existence and creation. does santa exist? if not, is a large group of people that do believe a good argument as proof that santa does exist? if we all hold hands real tight in a circle with a dream or vision of an afterlife and how to get there, will it become true? has anyone met their almighty creator and say they have seen proof?




debating another countries direction politically and thinking anyone other that Egyptians themselves have a hand in what goes down there is laughable.
i appreciate TAN reporting the news though, he has a good way of telling it like it is, but i still think he is a weenis...

Heston-

My faith doesn't involve Creation-
I"m an evolitionist

My faith focuses on Jesus' Vision of the Kingdom of God- happening here on earth...

Now that's not a governmental system,
that's a world where there's no hunger, thirst, violence, and a world in ecological balance.

Hell, I don't even believe in Hell:)

My faith isn't about an afterlife.
Its about now, how to change things now.

There's more to Christianity, than bad TV preachers and Mega Church theology/scandals.

:)

Sounds like Servent doesn't believe in anything. He just claims to be a minister so people will listen to him. Dude, we get that your a major tree huger. The problem is that not everyone wants to sit and sing comb by ya. There are bad people in this world who want to harm us. There is nothing wrong with self preservation. If that means giving one group (who has a proven track record of killing people like you just because of faith) a look over, so be it. Nothing wrong with that. I think you need to go into those areas and explain to them why they shouldn't hate Americans and that we should all get along. I give even odds that if you did that someone (a muslim) would kid nap you and we would wind up watching a vid of them cutting off your head. See, they dont have the same values we do and they hate us. There IS a problem with that faith.

and i'm really so bad, tan? :P

I dont think anything about race has been said here so please dont make anything about race. Thats not cool.

First off evolution is another faith based viewpoint which makes that point of view as viable as a denominational creator based view. providing no proof just collective theory.

Second, countries have set up their government, politics and laws based on religion. the most popular rules in each individual country. the US is one of the loudest mouths in professing a separation between church and state and it is laughable.
Finally, the fix is people setting aside imaginary bull fluff, ie. santa, religion... and look at people for what they are.

I've been watching this thread, finding it less and less worthwhile to even bother responding. However, I knew the best commentator alive today would throw down soon, and he has.

Enjoy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...2/03/AR2011020305173.html

Excellent article.

Well, they did it.

and people are crazy lying masochists who need to invent an imaginary beings so they can get rid of their feelings of guilt faster because they really enjoy being evil?