Yeah. I just wish we know how it happened and what can be done to mitigate that. That's all I'm saying.

It's pretty stupid to have mystery deaths happen without explanation of why.

Negative PCI growth has always been around tho.

Uhm. Negative PCI growth? What are you talking about Gerdler?

Only time PCI should drop below 0 is when you're consecutively out of food or money.

The only time it should reach 0 is because programming rounding. ie. 0.004999

The new formula is round(PCI,2) < 0.0

round(0.0049, 2) === 0 (in PHP) (dead)
round(0.005, 2) === 0.01 (in PHP) (alive)

The fact he was Tyranny and walled an insane # of attacks is likely why he died.
Esp since the PCI formula has GvtPCIBonus in it:
22.5 * (1 - Taxrate) * (1 + ((Networth/Land)/18000)) * (1 + (2 * (Ent/Land))) * BusTech * GvtPCIBonus


Tyranny +20% Attack Gains
-10% Military Upkeep Costs
Only 1 Turn Required Per Attack
-25% Maximum Per Capita Income <-------------

Also keep in mind, in every programming language, there's always precision errors with floats. They're well known in IEEE.

1.1 - 1.3 === ~0.19999999999999996

I'm talking about PCI dropping whenever you are low pop, despite the equilibrium PCI being higher than actual PCI. It has always been that way.

You will notice that every time you wall by taking turns on low pop your PCI crashes, yet if you use the PCI formula to calculate what your PCI should be it is basically unchanged by anything that the kill run affected (unless you are a casher getting BRed/chemed). In fact the PCI formula with a fascist at 70% tax rate and 100% bus tech, no enterprise zones you should still have around 5.7-6 PCI. So theres no way to get below 5.5 PCI without food/cash shortages or low population.

Afaik this has always been the case, maybe the breakpoints have changed at one point or another.

Like I said this is not correct at all.

This is the PCI formula. It never gets you a number below 5.7 PCI or so, it is always positive.

What you need is the PCI change formula.

Edit: Actually, you can get to 5.08 PCI "the normal" way. I forgot tyranny has lower PCI than fascism.

Its not a programming error or a rounding error that makes you lose PCI when walling.

Nowhere do I state it's a programming error. Which would imply it's a logical error. And if you want to be technical, it IS a programming error, because they should be doing float calculations in MySQL as decimals and not in PHP.

If your PCI is >= .0049, it rounds to 0 & you die.

There's a different PCI formula for when you're under 4/500? civs? I can't remember.

I discovered this 4 years ago:
http://www.earthempires.com/...rmulas-34780?t=1421605836

The #s didn't match up until after my 20th turn, but in reality it was population.

No im not talking about the PCI formula. But like with population you have a "population formula" but you also have a "population growth formula" and it is the same thing with PCI.

The population growth formula is quite simple so I can post it:

Population Growth =Trunc(If(MaxPop>CurrentPop,PopG,PopL),0)
PopG =Min(Trunc(Round((MaxPop-CurrentPop),0)/3,0),Max(40,Round(0.03*(1-Taxrate)*CurrentPop),0))
PopL =Min(Round((0.05+0.15*Taxrate)*CurrentPop,0),Trunc(Round((CurrentPop-MaxPop),0)/3,0))

On top of that you have the formula for maxpop which is the analogue of what we have posted in this thread for the PCI formula:
Maximum Population = (1-0.95*Taxrate)*(24*Res+12*Land)*ResTech*GvtPOP


So you see that there are two different formulas that are used depending on tax rate, population and max population, for how much your population grows. For instance if your pop is really low you get 40 as minimum pop growth.

It is the same with PCI growth except that formula is more complex and is actually 3 different formulas that are used in various situations. ONE of those formulas can cause it to take on negative values even when the actual PCI is below the max PCI. Ergo your PCI keeps dropping to 0 if it goes on long enough, and you die.

Well done Azn

you're about as useless as Xyle

Your PopG looks incorrect to me.

It should be:
Min(BioFactor*Trunc(Round((MaxPop-CurrentPop),0)/3,0),BioFactor*Max(40,Round(0.03*(1-Taxrate)*CurrentPop),0))

So is your PopL.

It should be:
Min(Round(BioFactor*(0.05+0.15*Taxrate)*CurrentPop,0),Trunc(BioFactor*Round((CurrentPop-MaxPop),0)/3,0))

That is also incorrect if you want to add bios into the discussion but it doesnt matter for the present discussion. You understand now that you have a "PCI change formula" that governs how your PCI changes, and that the PCI formula is just the equilibrium PCI?

I think I have said that 8-10 times in this thread.

Unless the formulas changed, it's still publicly available:
https://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Population

Last person to contribute to it was Enshula.

You ladies get this figured out yet?

So I take it you still don't acknowledge that there is a PCI change formula, then?

Req have you been looking up my dress?

You’ll never know and I’ll never tell!

Min(BioFactor*Trunc(Round((MaxPop-CurrentPop),0)/3,0),BioFactor*Max(40,Round(0.03*(1-Taxrate)*CurrentPop),0))

That formula? I havent done anything against it but that i get 40s for pop growth at low. I think pop growth is diff than pci growth

😯

Thats not it either

Chorizo in a dress?

We have pop growth, pop loss, pop, pci etc formulas.

Gerdy is referring to soomething that works in conjuction, a "PCI growth" formula. Not pop growth, not pci, but pci growth.

That formula is not listed anywhere and us wardogs continue to get no explanation of it. It's beginning to frustrate me.

I feel the need to QFT myself.

Do i have to suck pangs fluff to get it or test in alpha for the rest of my life to half understand it?

Well start with one of them then if that doesn't work try the other. You can decide which to try first.

Hmmm. Imma go with sucking fluffs. I'll let you know how it turns out.

TTT FOR PANG

Honestly they should either eliminate pci death or explain it. One or the other.

Best avenue for a response from admins is the Bugs and Suggestions forum.

/mod hat

I talked to Pang about the reason why he doesnt disclose all game formulas and it is intentional from what I can tell. I have the full e2025 PCI growth formula (at least I think it is correct, no way to test it now) and the EE PCI growth formula works very similarily.

The formulas are NOT exactly the same tho, probably just a few constants have been changed from what I can tell.

How to avoid PCI death should be up to every player and/or tag to learn either by testing, math and/or experience. This is exciting stuff and it is part of what drives me to play this game! :)

It is simple. Karma raised its head and AzN died on Sunday.

at least azn isn't only, llaar did same on earth2025.

Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to derive this formula, but it won't do you any good. No one is going to think about PCI deaths when walling and I suspect without restart bonus people will not be on low pop for so long

I don’t think PCI should kill you if you still have money on hand. Should have to have a 0 PCI and no money to survive another turn.

feel free to post that to b&s