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cyref

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Oct 20th 2023, 14:48:45

Another Q

Clan A decs on Clan B. Clan B has 48 hours to respond. At the 20th hour Clan B accepts.
Can the shooting start immediately upon Clan B's acceptance? Or do both sides have to wait for a complete 48 hour countdown?
👽

AndrewMose

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1046

Oct 20th 2023, 16:51:32

Regarding the expense change. I think it's worth pointing out that this will further hurt techers in primary. Oil destocks in primary are rare already. Cashers and Indy's win most sets and will now will have lower expenses during their jumping period. I guess techers can run turns for a bit longer before they stop, but because tech prices drop so low in the last couple of weeks those extra turns aren't as valuable for a techer. As it is a techer hasn't finished above 100M in primary in the past 12 months.

Shweezy

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Oct 20th 2023, 17:36:25

Originally posted by cyref:
HEY!
PEOPLE!
Take your 5th grade school lunchroom battles to another thread.

This is a thread about the damn Changeset, and you are burying my legit question.

GROW THE FK UP



I repeat my question

Clans >= 5 members can Declare War on other Clans that are >= 5 members (whether or not either are in Clan GDI)
-> the "Defending Clan" will have 48 hours to Accept War or Surrender (after which it is auto-Accepted)

Where is the ingame mechanism that allows a tag admin to declare war on other clans?



Yes STFU and keep on topic you egotistical attention grabbers..

I have like 16 loopholes found and no answer..
Catch me on ir c

Shweezy

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Oct 20th 2023, 17:38:51

Originally posted by cyref:
Another Q

Clan A decs on Clan B. Clan B has 48 hours to respond. At the 20th hour Clan B accepts.
Can the shooting start immediately upon Clan B's acceptance? Or do both sides have to wait for a complete 48 hour countdown?


This and many many questions..

Can Clan B retag to IMACOWARD clan and then 1 stays behind to accept, then Clan A automatically win via TNW? Then after IMACOWARD clan reunites with Clan B.. further canceling Clan B ever having to war again?

Loophole #17
Catch me on ir c

DerrickICN

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Oct 20th 2023, 19:02:58

Originally posted by Shweezy:
Originally posted by cyref:
Another Q

Clan A decs on Clan B. Clan B has 48 hours to respond. At the 20th hour Clan B accepts.
Can the shooting start immediately upon Clan B's acceptance? Or do both sides have to wait for a complete 48 hour countdown?


This and many many questions..

Can Clan B retag to IMACOWARD clan and then 1 stays behind to accept, then Clan A automatically win via TNW? Then after IMACOWARD clan reunites with Clan B.. further canceling Clan B ever having to war again?

Loophole #17

Yeah I wouldn't mind seeing Team server tagging rules. Post has merit.

Dark Demon

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Oct 21st 2023, 0:31:54

Keep the conversations to the topic please.
Mercs
Natural Born Killers

HH

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Oct 21st 2023, 16:32:35

I play in LaF and I said the same thing before Clan GDI. A Player vs Bot server would have been easier than all this mess.

Don't wanna be a little fluff though, I appreciate the effort and attempt to introduce new changes.

I think the risk that there will be loopholes players abuse until game devs patch them is pretty big going down this road.

HeadHunter

Chevs

Member
2061

Oct 22nd 2023, 1:13:28

Originally posted by HH:
I play in LaF and I said the same thing before Clan GDI. A Player vs Bot server would have been easier than all this mess.

Don't wanna be a little fluff though, I appreciate the effort and attempt to introduce new changes.

I think the risk that there will be loopholes players abuse until game devs patch them is pretty big going down this road.



+1
SOF Head Of Poop
2019-04-03 21:40:26 PS the stinky deyicks (#599) Beryl Houston (#360) LaF 30638A (43783A)
En4cer: Chevs... u would have beaten me by more than 100m

HH

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Oct 22nd 2023, 15:15:31

Where are the moderators when you need them? Just delete all off topic messages and keep the ones that actually is about these changes.
HeadHunter

cyref

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Oct 22nd 2023, 15:36:40

Originally posted by HH:
Where are the moderators when you need them? Just delete all off topic messages and keep the ones that actually is about these changes.


Agreed. This is a CHANGESET thread.
qzjul closed his announcement with
"As always let me know your thoughts."

Do you children care that he has to slog thru your personality disorders to find relevant posts?
👽

Tertius

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Oct 23rd 2023, 17:57:33

Originally posted by AndrewMose:
Regarding the expense change. I think it's worth pointing out that this will further hurt techers in primary. Oil destocks in primary are rare already. Cashers and Indy's win most sets and will now will have lower expenses during their jumping period. I guess techers can run turns for a bit longer before they stop, but because tech prices drop so low in the last couple of weeks those extra turns aren't as valuable for a techer. As it is a techer hasn't finished above 100M in primary in the past 12 months.


Yeah, this actually makes commies notably stronger in the NW range we see in primary, where they didn't really need any benefit. This makes it easier for small players to continue to get farmed with the compounding benefit. It also philosophically seems weird that military would get efficiencies of scale, because if anything (e.g. like corruption in game) it tends to be more bureaucratic and less efficient at size. Is there a reason this type of formula was considered instead of a more simple change to increase the denominator for the NW scaling like has been done in the past? Just bumping the denominator up to 600M would make a significant difference, but only for the top sizes in 1a, where the change was most needed.

AndrewMose

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Oct 25th 2023, 0:08:09

Where do we see the per turn expense?

HH

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Oct 25th 2023, 6:24:07

are these changes live in Alliance now?
HeadHunter

Rasp

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Oct 26th 2023, 16:22:16

Originally posted by Primeval:
Originally posted by Celphi:
Are you referring to the bot code?


He is. Instructions are on the AI Development forum section


https://github.com/...npc/blob/master/README.md

[16:18:00] znc-rasp: We can kill bushido, but not bushifo, zack, moriarty, ghost rider, or darkling
[16:18:07] Req: Is that all the same person?
[16:18:12] symba: yea
[16:18:25] mob: my kids are like dad why are you laughing so much

qzjul

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Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:42:06

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
TC does raise an interesting point. Most wars are decided inside the first 2 weeks. Perhaps the side with the highest ANW is declared victor after 2 weeks? Not my best suggestion but it's also the first time I've really thought about it. The declare victory option should negate his fear of inactive tags, but I understand the sentiment.

Super excited about the expenses fix. Literally can't wait to play an MBR netting for old times sake. Definitely coming outta retirement to play this, and even war in a basic sense is improved by the CS change. Love love love. Did lite testing of the expenses formula and got a small grin on my face. Thanks so much for those first 2 changes. I'm pumped.

Primary concern re: ClanGDI for me is when 3+ tags are involved in a war. For example, if 5 clans of 7 members declare war on 1 clan of 40 members, will that clan be able to declare victory over each individual tag being 5x their size? And on the other hand, if the group of 5 tags wins, will they be able to declare victory despite none being 5x the size individually?

Don't hate the idea of playing thru a set or 2, tho, to see what needs to be fixed regarding 3+ clans involved in a war. I have more questions than suggestions at this point, so they might be better answered just playing thru a couple rounds.

Awesome changeset tho QZ. You kinda nailed it.


I hope so. There might be some weird cases and loopholes, but we'll work through those.
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

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Oct 30th 2023, 0:44:08

Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
@ Qzjul So if your alliance has 5 members or less, another alliance who is 6+ members cannot declare war on you? I would like some clarification on that.


Yea so this is one of those corner cases I'm not sure on. I like this "you gotta be 5 members to be clanGDI" suggestion though. That seems reasonable tbh.
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

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Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:45:08

Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
@ Qzjul So if your alliance has 5 members or less, another alliance who is 6+ members cannot declare war on you? I would like some clarification on that.


Yea so this is one of those corner cases I'm not sure on. I like this "you gotta be 5 members to be clanGDI" suggestion though. That seems reasonable tbh.
Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:
Since the FA now includes stock, I recommend caping it based on the corresponding potential of the other clan, otherwise you're going to see war clans make a bunch of different combinations of 6 player teams (each one only uses 4 players), and late game netting clans will find no protection from clan GDI. Without having to put skin in the game it's a "heads I win tails you lose" situation.

Honestly including stock is a breaking change and shouldn't be implemented, probably best to remove bushels and cash. It also gives a strange preference to stocking oil, so really the FA part is probably unworkable in general.


It's based on max 50% of FA capped to relative TNW currently
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

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Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:47:30

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
When I first thought of the "countdown to war mechanic," that's actually specifically what I wanted addressed. Obviously it helps protect against blindsides/suicides which is nice, but a small tag or suicider bunch with no intention of being able to win should have the damage they do massively mitigated by the larger tag, and having the larger tag involved in the first strike should make a declaration of victory eminent. In theory, you should be able to declare victory in the early hours in a lopsided affair.

While it doesn't eliminate the ability to grief completely, it should be rather easy to win those types of war very quickly, and gain a sum of money for damage caused. It's more of a nuisance than a set ruiner.

And again, the onus has always been on the players to work SOME diplomacy to protect themselves. I can think of reasons for just about every suicider ive ever had, and whether or not I agree with the merits, I got hit because people were mad at me. You shouldn't be protected if you want to act like a big jerk all the time. It's completely fair to suffer some grief for bad politics as diplomacy is part of the game.

Also, when QZ and I discussed onboarding pacts into the game and making them ACTUALLY UNBREAKABLE, I think he liked the idea, but kinda kicked the can on it to focus on building a good ClanGDI system. Not saying it is part of the plan, but it has definitely been talked about as a good idea and something he hopes to do in the future since it's a larger programming commitment then a simple mechanics change. Leaders would need a whole new portal etc.


Yea, this is much more complicated. We've got a TON of the groundwork in now though, which is helpful. Just even having the concept of "official" clan wars is huge.

I'd also like to note that there is currently NO NEWS associated with these events. That's something I'll rectify sometime in the next while. It's not a game balance thing so I'll just put it in randomly when i get around to it.
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Oct 30th 2023, 0:49:34

Originally posted by cyref:
HEY!
PEOPLE!
Take your 5th grade school lunchroom battles to another thread.

This is a thread about the damn Changeset, and you are burying my legit question.

GROW THE FK UP


I repeat my question

Clans >= 5 members can Declare War on other Clans that are >= 5 members (whether or not either are in Clan GDI)
-> the "Defending Clan" will have 48 hours to Accept War or Surrender (after which it is auto-Accepted)

Where is the ingame mechanism that allows a tag admin to declare war on other clans?


It's in the Clans page
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:50:30

Originally posted by cyref:
I have two more questions

- Clans will have a "Defence Account", denominated in $
- Countries in Clan GDI will pay 1% of "GDP" (NW + Expenses), to this account each turn

Does that mean ALL clans will have a Defence Account but only countries in Clan GDI will pay the 1% of GDP?

And:

- Clans >= 5 members can Declare War on other Clans that are >= 5 members (whether or not either are in Clan GDI)
-> the "Defending Clan" will have 48 hours to Accept War or Surrender (after which it is auto-Accepted)

So, whether or not a tag is in Clan GDI, it cannot be surprise attacked? There will always be 48 hours to respond regardless of Clan GDI status?


1) yes
2) uh, no, if it's not in Clan GDI it becomes active right away
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:51:04

Originally posted by cyref:
Another Q

Clan A decs on Clan B. Clan B has 48 hours to respond. At the 20th hour Clan B accepts.
Can the shooting start immediately upon Clan B's acceptance? Or do both sides have to wait for a complete 48 hour countdown?


The former, shooting commences upon Clan B's acceptance
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Oct 30th 2023, 0:55:30

Originally posted by Tertius:
Originally posted by AndrewMose:
Regarding the expense change. I think it's worth pointing out that this will further hurt techers in primary. Oil destocks in primary are rare already. Cashers and Indy's win most sets and will now will have lower expenses during their jumping period. I guess techers can run turns for a bit longer before they stop, but because tech prices drop so low in the last couple of weeks those extra turns aren't as valuable for a techer. As it is a techer hasn't finished above 100M in primary in the past 12 months.


Yeah, this actually makes commies notably stronger in the NW range we see in primary, where they didn't really need any benefit. This makes it easier for small players to continue to get farmed with the compounding benefit. It also philosophically seems weird that military would get efficiencies of scale, because if anything (e.g. like corruption in game) it tends to be more bureaucratic and less efficient at size. Is there a reason this type of formula was considered instead of a more simple change to increase the denominator for the NW scaling like has been done in the past? Just bumping the denominator up to 600M would make a significant difference, but only for the top sizes in 1a, where the change was most needed.


This was after discussion with a couple people, admittedly it was 1a focused though. Partially I'm thinking about bots as well, and changes I'd like to make there. I forget sometimes that Primary doesn't have bots. DM me on google chat or discord and we can chat about ideas and solutions :-D
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

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Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:56:06

Originally posted by AndrewMose:
Where do we see the per turn expense?
It's technically listed in GDI i believe....
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
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Oct 30th 2023, 0:56:30

Originally posted by HH:
are these changes live in Alliance now?
yes... but i hadn't merged some of the GUI stuff...
Finally did the signature thing.

Syko_Killa

Member
4998

Oct 30th 2023, 17:24:56

Well, we better get ready to pay our feudal lords, we're going back to the medieval times and feudalism. Where's the ring? may I kiss it? Deja Vu anyone? .. let's rediscover Utopians!
Do as I say, not as I do.

Coalie

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Oct 30th 2023, 18:55:19

Originally posted by HH:
Where are the moderators when you need them? Just delete all off topic messages and keep the ones that actually is about these changes.


^ for Karnage

Thanks hh :)

DerrickICN

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Nov 9th 2023, 7:43:03

Kinda funny when people aren't arguing that maybe they don't talk at all lol.

I'll be honest qz, in terms of gameplay, I don't think this is doing what you intended it for, and is very clearly dramatically hurting membership. I think you're sort of trying to keep "toxic behavior" away from normal people, but those normal people may be the most toxic. There's got to be a better way to let politics play out without eliminating war.

I've made many suggestions on this, because I do actually see it as the way of the future of the game, but you've still got to let people hit each other. It's part of what made this community a community and not some single player game.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Nov 9th 2023, 7:45:32
See Original Post

DerrickICN

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Nov 14th 2023, 0:04:28

5 days later after some more conversations of a new crop of folks playing their last ever set and me lamenting it, I suppose I'll double post.

The goal should be to eliminate suicides and blindsides, not war. This payout LaF gives essentially to be jerks to the rest of the community while simultaneously avoiding war is silly, and allows the worst of all personalities to flourish. Hate from the largest tags has no consequences now, so the game itself is degraded.

War is essential here, qz. You're killing this community by disallowing it.

Please remove the tithing warclans bit, and you've got a great changeset. It's perfectly fine that a clan can get hit with notice, any real ones that haven't been jerks to people should be able to defend themselves with notice.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Nov 14th 2023, 0:11:38
See Original Post

myerr21

Member
533

Nov 18th 2023, 15:00:51

AB is just not worth it anymore. You can spend hundreds of thousands of tanks and 140 turns and not get a single CS. It took dude 27.5 turns to rebuild. Ive done it multiple times just to make sure. Tanks are just a bait, I dont get why you keep drastically changing a game thats existed for decades lol.
Elders

gains [23:16:55] * Myerr!*@* added to ignore list

cloud-superfly: CP is ok

KoHeartsGPA

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Nov 18th 2023, 20:23:39

Devs need to stop pandering to LaF or just rename the fluffing game to "LaF meta circle jerk safe space"
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

DerrickICN

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Nov 19th 2023, 0:07:49

It now does damage equal to your CS divided by a constant. Meaning the more CS you build, the more CS you destroy.

This is not an opinion, this is just letting you know you have far too few CS if you're getting 0 returns lol

Chevs

Member
2061

Nov 19th 2023, 2:06:06

Originally posted by myerr21:
I dont get why you keep drastically changing a game thats existed for decades lol.


But you do know, right ?
SOF Head Of Poop
2019-04-03 21:40:26 PS the stinky deyicks (#599) Beryl Houston (#360) LaF 30638A (43783A)
En4cer: Chevs... u would have beaten me by more than 100m

Rasp

Member
944

Dec 4th 2023, 16:19:27

Originally posted by qzjul:
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
@ Qzjul So if your alliance has 5 members or less, another alliance who is 6+ members cannot declare war on you? I would like some clarification on that.


Yea so this is one of those corner cases I'm not sure on. I like this "you gotta be 5 members to be clanGDI" suggestion though. That seems reasonable tbh.

Edited By: Rasp on Dec 4th 2023, 16:21:30. Reason: fixed quote2
[16:18:00] znc-rasp: We can kill bushido, but not bushifo, zack, moriarty, ghost rider, or darkling
[16:18:07] Req: Is that all the same person?
[16:18:12] symba: yea
[16:18:25] mob: my kids are like dad why are you laughing so much

KoHeartsGPA

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EE Patron
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Dec 4th 2023, 18:40:25

Originally posted by Chevs:
Originally posted by myerr21:
I dont get why you keep drastically changing a game thats existed for decades lol.


But you do know, right ?


/me laughs
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!