All-explorers outgrowing grabbing countries

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 18:42:28

If you cannot keep up with all-explore countries in land, why should you be entitled to 1:1 retals?

If you suck so much at landgrabbing that even after grabbing an all-explore country you are still smaller than them, why should they be penalized for your horrible skills at grabbing?

Crippler ICD

Member
3739

Feb 24th 2011, 18:44:43

why would your all explorer suck so much that it could be land grabbed in the first place? :)

Crippler
FoCuS
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CripplerTD

[14:26] <enshula> i cant believe im going to say this
[14:26] <enshula> crippler is giving us correct netting advice

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 18:49:37

How many turrets does one need to be unbreakable? Even if you're turret heavy AND in the top 10, your country is breakable.

Being breakable doesn't mean you suck. Being barely half the size of an all-explore country does mean you suck.

Some Guy

Member
401

Feb 24th 2011, 18:52:53

You keep fighting that fight, rockman, but the last thing this server needs is to be one step closer to Alliance.

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Feb 24th 2011, 18:56:04

Being half the size of the target country, and still able to afford enough military to break it while not being a jetter does imply that you did not have enough defense.

If the grabber is an active grabber, and he has less land then an explorer then yes he sucks. If he did just 1 grab and it broke you, then meh, it happens.

Coming to FFAT to complain about being hit is pretty lame though.

If your country has 0% weap tech then quantity matters less, then overall country quality.

Now we all know there are dozens of different strategies that will have any country end up being a small size. That doesn't mean any of them suck, especially if they are at the same NW you are (Which I assume is what happened otherwise you would make out by a ton on the retal and not whine).

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 18:58:55

In other words, we should all run around with 20 million turrets on 10k acres grabbing each other? Thats the best way to play?

Crippler ICD

Member
3739

Feb 24th 2011, 19:12:21

absolutly!

Crippler
FoCuS
<--MSN
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CripplerTD

[14:26] <enshula> i cant believe im going to say this
[14:26] <enshula> crippler is giving us correct netting advice

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 19:24:32

I don't mind being grabbed, I just don't like it when people deliberately stay small in order to prevent the person they grab from getting their land back.

Slagpit

Administrator
Game Development
4683

Feb 24th 2011, 19:30:30

Only noobs stockpile resources. Why stockpile resources when you can immediately spend all of your money on turrets? It's not like you have to pay maintenance on those turrets every single turn whereas the low land country that grabbed you uses his low land as his defense and pays next to nothing in military maintenance. There's no disparity there at all.

Twain

Member
3320

Feb 24th 2011, 19:32:42

Slaggy strikes again!

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 19:41:23

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Even if you spend all your money on turrets every day, your explore gains aren't diminished. Unless you're a techer, I don't see how its possible to stay small without intentionally not growing. And I fail to see how intentionally not growing is different from reverse two stepping.

If I took 1 of my 18k acre countries right now and farmed it down to 8k acres over the next 3 days, and it then grabbed an 18k acre country, why should it be treated differently than a country which through bad grabs and wasted turns also ends up at 8k acres and also grabs the 18k acre country?

Twain

Member
3320

Feb 24th 2011, 19:46:45

Originally posted by Rockman:

If I took 1 of my 18k acre countries right now and farmed it down to 8k acres over the next 3 days, and it then grabbed an 18k acre country, why should it be treated differently than a country which through bad grabs and wasted turns also ends up at 8k acres and also grabs the 18k acre country?

Even though I usually find myself on the same side as you, I'm not on this one. What you're describing is ultimately having your cake and eating it too, to use that ridiculously archaic phrase. You're getting the land from the 18k acre country transferred to other countries of yours, helping you, and you're getting the extra gains in land due to the fact that the retaliating country won't be able to gain back as much land. So you're benefiting twice.

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Feb 24th 2011, 19:49:30

Never said get 20mil turrets on 10k acres, you are exaggerating to the extreme to make your arguement seem fair. However generally people deal with reality, and as I had already mentioned weapons tech is a good example of how to increase your military power and not your expenses.

If everyone won every grab that happened, then there would be a lot less whining and a lot more grabbing.

There is no way to be invincible enough, you just have to be tough. And sure it sucks when someone gets a good grab on you, but you have SIXTEEN countries, odds are one of em will be hit sooner or later, you just have to make it as tough as practical in the meantime.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Gmann03

Member
827

Feb 24th 2011, 19:55:49

true dat K4F, u gonna get grabbed......period
some more than others, this is a game, not RL.
Grin & bare it.

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Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 20:20:38

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

As I said before, I don't mind being grabbed. I just dislike it when the country I get to retal is artificially small in landsize, well below the size of non-republic all-explore countries. If you are going to deliberately stay small to abuse the 1:1 retal policy, how is that different from reverse two-stepping?

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Feb 24th 2011, 20:24:27

Yeah it sucks Rockman, and theoretically it is exploiting, but how many grabs can he do before he is up to par with explorers, 1, 2 at most? It is a problem thatll solve itself pretty fast.

Two stepping and reverse two stepping are one of your countries gets a massive advantage at the cost of whoever you grab, and this is 100% intentional and obvious that you are trying to screw someone over.

Being small and grabbing is you get slightly better at the cost of who you grab. This may or may not be intentional, but if it is just the odd grab once a week, stuff like thatll happen. Annoying, but if you retal well you will almost break even with ghost.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 20:28:00

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

It will take way more than 1 or 2 grabs unless the explorers choose not to retal or choose to not retal properly.

I'm not talking about someone who is 80% of the size of all-explore countries, but when people are 50% of the size of all-explore countries, thats when it starts to become a deliberate attempt to harm others rather than help yourself.

You don't go from 10k acres to 18k acres with 2 grabs on 18k acre countries that both get retalled properly.

Some Guy

Member
401

Feb 24th 2011, 20:34:16

I don't understand what the problem is with hitting someone in your networth range with the most acres on hand.

If we are both 10mil NW and one country has 8k acres and the other has 15k acres, why wouldn't I choose the fatter one?

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Feb 24th 2011, 20:44:30

I would not consider a single grab a deliberate attempt to harm someone. If it was one a day or couple days, then perhaps.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rico

Member
1129

Feb 24th 2011, 20:47:23

If you keep over retaling IMP you will end up dead.

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Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 20:49:09

It was not an overretal. He was under 10k acres over 2200 turns into the set. He has no right to 1:1 retals.

EViL

Member
249

Feb 24th 2011, 20:50:29

I've got my money on you getting sent home or taught a valuable lesson before long.

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 20:53:46

And they still claim they aren't trying to drive netters off the server? Self farming isn't allowed, but dropping land is?

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Feb 24th 2011, 20:59:32

Dropping land is the same as two-stepping, definetly not allowed if done before retal takes place.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rico

Member
1129

Feb 24th 2011, 21:00:04

Nobody has dropped land.

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Rico

Member
1129

Feb 24th 2011, 21:01:45

And nuking is not the answer.

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EViL

Member
249

Feb 24th 2011, 21:03:32

I checked the news. The country you overretalled is 9,344. So before you grabbed it for 1736 (before ghost) he would have had 11080. The news says his acres before the grab was (drumroll please): 11,080.

Ever assume there was a news bug in Boxcar before you threw a tantrum because someone made a good grab on a moderate fat country?

Rockman

Member
3388

Feb 24th 2011, 21:12:50

Originally posted by Rico:

And nuking is not the answer.

It isn't? But I thought dropping land was a good thing? If its not, why does everyone strive to be so small?

Warster

Game Moderator
Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
4172

Feb 24th 2011, 21:29:25

Netting countries should hold no less then 250 -300 turrets per acre as a min for a one man tag, larger alliances can get away with 200 -250 turrets per acre. Well that's the rule in tko anyway

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Rico

Member
1129

Feb 24th 2011, 21:30:36

Rockman = sand in vagina

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Some Guy

Member
401

Feb 24th 2011, 21:38:51

LOL he dropped land on his entire tag. What a little girl

EViL

Member
249

Mar 13th 2011, 5:21:14

t t t for:

Originally posted by Rockman:

Originally posted by EViL:

Twain and anyone else curious - just a quick point:

IMP hit rockman maybe 3-4 times in a days time or so because his countries were landfat and he had low defense.

There is a news bug on Boxcar and he misread the news, thinking that some IMP country dropped land to hit him. He retalled 2:1 and had a hissyfit when IMP told him they were hitting him for overretalling. Then when he figured out he was in the wrong and there actually is a news bug he took his ball and went home (dropped land on all of his countries). This was all around the time he was on some mission to make people on FFAT believe that landgrabbing is evil or something. Right up Sanct's ally if you ask me.

Just FYI =)

IMP hit me 3 times in less than 3 hours, and from the messages I received, it was clear that those 3 hits were far from all I was going to receive.

My countries did not have low defense, but they were landfat in that they did not artificially stop their growth and explored at a normal rate.

I don't even have a FFA boxcar account and never made a claim about a news bug or dropping land.

I dropped land after I was told I was being attacked for what I had done in primary.

...

Keep telling yourself lies to make yourself believe you aren't a bully. You're the ones who decided to farm me because I got one of your members deleted on another server for cheating.

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Mar 13th 2011, 5:26:24

3 hits on 16 countries and he is complaining? That is averaged out to 1 hit per 5 days per country :P

And after finding out how many turrets he had covering his 20kish acres (about 5mil if I recall), he can hardly complain about a respectable amount of hits well within the hit limit of any clan (Yes FFA does impose a hit limit for almost all major clans)

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rockman

Member
3388

Mar 13th 2011, 5:28:15

ah, thank you for confirming that IMP were the ones who brought up boxcar and accusations of dropping land.

Rockman

Member
3388

Mar 13th 2011, 5:29:51

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

Wow, you really suck at math.

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Mar 13th 2011, 5:30:03

You did drop the land in all your countries to 2k acres!

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rockman

Member
3388

Mar 13th 2011, 5:31:20

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

You did drop the land in all your countries to 2k acres!

Correct. After I was told I was being hit for what I'd done in primary. And after I'd seen IMP farm/kill about half a dozen other one man tags this set.

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Mar 13th 2011, 5:33:36

Originally posted by Rockman:

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

Wow, you really suck at math.

Oh, 3 hits in 1 day, on 16 countries is 3/16 hits per country per day, so 1/0.1875 hits per day, which is just under 1 hit per 5 days per country on average.

If you are insulting me over a decimal place that I passed up on to make things easier for you to understand, perhaps you should practice your math more.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK

Rockman

Member
3388

Mar 13th 2011, 5:37:48

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

Originally posted by Rockman:

Originally posted by Kill4Free:

Wow, you really suck at math.

3 hits in under 3 hours = about 1 hit per hour
And messages indicating that those 3 hits were not all that I was going to receive. And past examples of farming by IMP for people doing 1:1 retals like I'd done just a couple days before on IMP. At first I thought the hits were just because IMP doesn't accept 1:1 retals, but after I was told it was because of my actions in primary, I realized that they were going to farm and kill me, so I preemptively surrendered.

EViL

Member
249

Mar 13th 2011, 5:41:46

You're a liar. We still have the PMs saved where you said you hit us 2:1 because we dropped land before we hit you. Not to mention you said it in this thread.

And we hit you because you were fat. Legitimately.

Anything else cupcake?

Kill4Free

Member
3149

Mar 13th 2011, 6:56:43

You go by day Rockman.

For example

K4F gets hit twice within 2 min.

That works out to almost 4 times per country per hour!
So almost 100 times per country per day!

I know my above example is a bit silly, but my point stands. You go by day, not hour. You got hit 3 times, and flipped out. Suck it up.

So many ways to die, only one way to live...
NBK