So with the whole Diablo III thing going on right now I thought I would ask this question because we are for the most part a civil gaming forum (I giggle when I typed that).

Is it acceptable to fluff when a game you pay for does not work or perform to what you think it should...
OR
Do we expect to much from the gaming companies and the technology just isn't there for what we want?

I'm just curious because there are a lot of people who are defending Blizzard's on Diablo 3 not working right now and it surprised me because at first I thought it was just people trolling....but it seems there are quite a few people who are not upset that they can't play and don't blame Blizzard at all for the problems.

Do people really pay that much money for things and not care when they don't work right or is there some gaming code that I don't know about yet?

What was nice about WoW was Blizzard was constantly making new content for it/improvements (debatable :D) so when these improvements caused the server to go down for long/unreasonable amounts of time they would credit your account. However given that D3 is not subscription base, it sucks but IMO it is the small price we pay if we want (in the long term) a stable, working, cheat free (competitive for some) fun game.

depends on whether or not i was intending to upgrade the computer. but i won't spend the money now, without seeing how a demo works first.

i'd be pissed if my computer met the specs but it didn't play.

fluff happens dude. We are a society of fluffy whiny little kids with entitlement issues. Diablo 3 is a massively complicated game and stuff will happen. It will be figured out.

Is it fair to be annoyed? Yah, for sure, but I fluffing hate those little kids and their posting on the d3 forums. "I HOPE THEY PIRATE YOUR GAME. ZOMG MAINTENANCE ON A TUESDAY!? WHY IS SINGLE PLAYER GAME ONLINE ONLY! I SPEAK IN CAPS CAUSE IM MAD AND YOU MUST VALUE MY OPINION!

It has been a bit rough with the errors but it is rarely down for too long except during scheduled maintenance.

You can claim we paid a ton of money and expect it to work, but unless a company does beta testing from the start of the game to the end with the full population of players and every function of the game up, then you are going to have errors. If you don't accept that then you are being ignorant. Oh and it is obvious why no one does full open betas.

D3 works just fine

I'm thinking about getting D3, is it fun? D2 got boring real fast, seemed like the only way to get good was to build a MF Sorceress and kill certain guys over and over, is this going to get boring?

The way you get good gear in D3 is by killing elite groups of monsters(killing 1 gets a MF buff and you can get 5 stacks) and then going and killing a boss. It's a bit more of a complete experience imo and once they fix their loot it will be as perfect as any online game loot aquiring system. They have said they need to fix certain things about their legendary items since they aren't that good and such.

Overall I'd say it is a much funner game than D2, with a few things still to be worked out.

See this is what interest me is Locket's opinion.

Your in the group of people who don't think people should be mad at not getting the quality of a product they paid for.

But I ask you this, if you buy say a DVD and it doesn't work all the time...do you get upset about it or just accept it?

Heck I'll even use the car example...you buy a car and it doesn't work sometimes...wouldn't you get angry? I understand its a lot more money but still....its a product people paid for.

Because its a video game it seems some people think its more of a luxury then something you are entitled to.

I donnu I guess the only thing that pisses me off is Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar company and made over a billion dollars last year.

I just don't understand why they get a free pass from so many people.

If I buy a dvd and it doesn't work I return it and get a new one. DVD's are a simple process to make it so that they work. A game with millions of people playing and a huge amount of information traveling every which way is a complicated matter. It WILL have difficulties.

I never said you can't be mad or annoyed but there are ways to express that and there are very few people who do so in a mature manner. There is also a point at which you are getting too mad over it.

Your comparisons don't work btw. If I buy a car and it has tons of problems then I am paying extra money to fix it. If I buy Diablo 3 and it is down sometimes or I have disconnect issues for a day or two, then they are spending money to fix it. All I have is a few hours in which i have to do something else. I know they'll fix it and I know it will run quite smoothly eventually. Every other game in the history of games has had bugs. Every online only game has had issues similar to this with a lot less people involved typically.

Blizzard will get it right eventually. I trust that. I am annoyed with the down time, but I am also reasonable enough to understand why it is happening and that I can quite simply go outside or go do something else like SC2 instead.

When you purchased it that you should have known that they will continuously be improving it/maintaining it. Yes it sucks/is annoying that it has had some downtime today, but in the long run it is for the better.

Blizzard's greed is a whole different story. The fact that they are doing all of this without requiring a subscription is quite nice. This is much different than buying a car/dvd.

well I'm of the complete opposite opinion and it's easy fluffes like locket that we have to thank for, that gaming companies think they can get away with every stunt they pull.(btw I'm also annoyed by the currently developing fluffstorm-culture, where every little problem is made out to be the end of the world on the internet. That doesn't mean that most gaming companies completely screw over their clients)
-What other industry only licenses away their products?
-we already had the car example
-I didn't buy D3 despite wanting to, because I'm not paying for a game where I don't even have the option to play for myself and offline.
-I don't give a crap about the RM auction house. That's actually a smart move, given all the ebay sales of D2 items.

If D3 being down is causing extreme duress to people, the down time is good for them. They need to step away and reevaluate their priorities. If you don't want a game that has kinks in it, don't buy a game as soon as it comes out.

argh mixed up edit and quote again

LOL ok asshole. The car example doesn't work. Apples and oranges my friend. If you didn't buy D3 then you don't exactly have much reason to complain about it then now do you? If you don't vote you have no right to complain about the government. Same concept imo. I am sure that reasonable people are at fault for a game having technical difficulties.

I guess that since you are so smart you would have a solution to their problem that is different than what they have done?

I guess taking the game down for as short of a time as possible, during the lowest possible play times whenever possible, offering refunds to some customers(even through their online purchases), and overall just doing their best job to get it up and running, are all terrible things.

BAD COMPANY! BAD! I'M LOUD. LISTEN TO ME INSULT PEOPLE WHO STATE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHY GAMES HAVE ISSUES SOMETIMES.

You do realize EE has had downtime too. I guess your points apply to Pang and co. too then.

PS: Thanks for the nice words! Always nice to have a fan.

See and is where my opinion changes because I think Locket is trolling more then defending his position on giving gaming companies a free pass!

The people who support gaming companies always turn into trolls and I guess that is why I get annoyed with em..

But back to the more civil aspect of this hehe...so locket and deli your saying because of all the information that comes in and what not...its understandable to expect this much downtime on the game? So its a technology thing that we are just able to handle this many people on servers yet or what?

BTW I hardly play Diablo, I just don't get why these big gaming companies get a free pass all the time is all.

Just watch Kungen play if you are in desperate need of a D3 fix :)

http://www.twitch.tv/kungentv

Epic HC death video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvEDq6szy10

Blizzard did a good job with Diablo 2 LoD as far as i'm concerned. so, i'd probably have some patience while they work out the kinks for Diablo 3.

I'm not trolling anything you said. i'm defending my opinion on things :P I responded quite harshly to rednose because he referred to me as an "easy fluff" :P

lol I like that 2nd vid :P I saw another one where a guy completely freaked. I like these guys more.

It is reasonable to accept and understand that fluff happens, especially when making improvements a game that has barely been out 2 weeks. Improvements during a regularly scheduled downtime I knew about before purchasing the game, improvements that I am not required to pay a a subscription for. I find that more than fair, because in the long run the game will be more enjoyable for me to play and I will not die from being without it for a day (especially not 5 hours longer than they scheduled it to be down).

I am sorry to say but this is absolute bullfluff.

What happened? Did EA fluff enough of you in the ass long enough that now you enjoy it? Why are you letting a game company dictate the way you play games. Last time I checked (1990s?) the customer's wants dictated the way a game was played.

You paid money (quite a bit at that) for a game. Some may want to play it online, I sure as hell do not nor do many others. Most wanted the ability to play it on LAN or Solo. Why in the hell are you giving a company money that can't even make solo and lan play possible. At this point they can't even get online play right. Most of this game goes against what the majority wanted as a followup.

PC gaming is truly dead, and it's all thanks to people just bending over and taking it.

What should really piss you off is that you paid for the game, in a month (if not already) it will be cracked and the pirates won't have to deal with all of these DRM nightmares.

Enjoy paying a game company to fluff you in the ass.

This is assuming we give a fluff about anyone's gaming experience besides our own (I don't). </sof>

Online play means harder to hack for items making, harder to pirate and other such things. When the fluff did gaming companies stop letting people pirate their games so they get less money out of it? fluffers.

SO basically you are saying you like it and want more?

I am saying that I understand why they did it. I'd rather have the option to play offline but its not a huge deal to me. I can live with the down time too but I don't like it. i just know that it will work smoothly sometime in the near future just like all their other games do.

No you think it will work smoothly, you don't know.
There have been many games that promises were made but not kept. Bliz has done it multiple times themselves.

Also what about when Blizzard goes out of business or stops supporting the game? Then what?

Sound like you trust greedy corporations quite a bit. Sounds like a foolish policy to me.

lolll. Ok so tell me this. Do WoW or SC2 work smoothly? Yes. I played or play both at one point and both worked just fine. To me and anyone else thinking clearly that would imply that an experienced company like Blizzard would get it right given the right amount of time. It WILL run smoothly.

Also... Blizzard go out of business? Did you see how many copies of D3 they sold? Yah. ok.

Sounds like you choose not to trust any big corporation. I put my trust in certain places and to a certain amount. Believing a company like Blizz will get the game running smoothly isnt a huge amount of trust to be put out there.

WHAT IF THE WORLD ENDS?! WILL I GET MY SIXTY BUCKS BACK :(((?!

Just saying that Aus/NZ players got royally fluffed
The game is only online, and yet there are no oceanic servers, meaning we get a MINIMUM 200ms, which is rarely stable
and on top of that, we paid more for the game... it was US $60 on their website, but if the region was changed to aus, it was bumped up to AU $80. I find that to be particularly messed up

This, as a fellow aussie we're always on the (worse) receiving end with the server downtimes coinciding with our only time to play the game (6pm+) after we finish working/uni etc every tuesday. We're the minority as well compared to other regions so blizzard probably doesn't care about us at all.

I think blizzard was also under pressure to release it at the state it was due to it being postponed SO many times and needed some revenue is my guess. It disgusts me reading the blizz forums with the 12yr olds whining in caps but blizzard should have done better before releasing this as a full version. AH is soo buggy it's not funny and that was one of the selling points of this game coming after D2.

It's the internetz afterall, whining/trolling will never cease to exist. I mean, just look at AT :P

Man I used to be so good at duping back in the day. Windys. SS. Grandfathers. The works. Had 2 or 3 mules full of SoJs when they were still the accepted currency.

I am guessing you don't/haven't played WoW in a long time. Or even read their boards. It's been awhile since I seen so much hate.

SC2 is polarizing. Many that loved starcraft are pretty annoyed with this. Also no LAN play means no point buying. LAN play is almost dead, I won't waste money on a game friends or family cant join up playing together.

Joining a party and starting a game isn't that hard is it?

It is if you have a bunch of people gathered to play. Means you have to have a great internet connection.

Also I travel quite a bit with the wife she loves playing D2 on LAN with me. That alone makes D3 impossible. SC2 might be possible now.

Anyways they made these moves to deter pirates and in the end will have skyrocketed the number of people who will pirate the game to just avoid drm. Soon those people will question why bother paying for something they will have to pirate to play it their way.

It really is like people enjoy having their features limited, control locked down, and play options reduced to online only. From those that accept this I am guessing that you have apple products too, huh?

Pay premium price for underwhelming features. Yay!

in theory it was for the real money auction house, not piracy (or so they say).

simple solution is make a single player offline mode where the RM AH is not available. the fact I have to connect to their servers to play single player is why I haven't purchased it. when they have an official way to do that they'll see my money. until then I await a pirate version.

WoW players always hated everything. Doesn't mean their servers are having troubles unless you mean that they are. And no I havn't played it in quite awhile. But when I did it gave what they promised it would, even if each different consumer might want something different. Oh and the whiny loud ones are always the people who hate something. Those who love it or like it rarely speak up.

Oh and as for lan... I personally don't care about it. I havn't heard about anyone being able to pirate SC2 yet and I'm sure they would if they could. I don't look very hard but yah. Lots of the people complaining are the pirates. If people didn'y steal fluff then you'd still have lan as they'd have no reason to not do sc2 lan mode :P Blame who you wish though.

Personally I've played d3 maybe 40h, and it was only on launch day I had problems. I'm satisfied with the performance, and I like cloud storage of my game stuff...

Of course I have 10/100 persistent fiber to home connection. Dunno what I'd say if I was on a crappy connection.

Also I've LAN'ed D3, but we did have a pretty decent connection + router then. No NAT issues or such reared their ugly heads. At least they got some of their network code right.

locket, quick search showed SC2 has been cracked for quite a while. RTS isn't my cup of tea or else I'd have better details than that.

Erian, it's not exactly LAN when you're connecting to an outside server

I guess he's talking about the MP part, that actually is the bread and butter of it. The SP is pirated of course.

Well, it was 4 nerds in one room. That's the LAN concept to me regardless if there is an outside connection or not. ;)
At least when we can just use one connection and don't have to do any more work than normal (i.e. plug in cables in to our central switch/router).

my sentiments exactly.
-as I said before, because a very large part of games companies' costumers are kids or are still comparably young and don't give a fluff about restrictions like locket does, the game market developed in a way that nearly no other market did. Name me 1 market where it is acceptable:
-to publish that many unfinished/not-properly-working products(bugs, and I don't mean the one or other minor bug, but gamebreaking or crashing bugs)
-to only license out your product
-to severly restrict the user in the way he is allowed to use the product


so you actually say you like it :D

I understand that making it online is the best way of copy protection for blizzard. I don't understand why so many people are willing to bend over for a game that's not one bit as industry-changing(or only in the worst possible way for the costumer) as D2 was. In a few days Torchlight 2 will be released at a cheaper price, with less restrictions from publisher side and with nearly the same quality. It only hasn't the big blizzard tag attached to it.

Why change the industry when you already had a great prequel? :P They fixed lots of things like the spam click looting from D2 and their looting is revolutionary i think(I heard that anyways). I like it when great game franchises try small changes :P FF 13 was a big change and it sucked big time.

I also do love it when a new series is completely revoultionary though. Innovation is always fun to see.

Part of it is that the quality and sophistication of programming and programming efficiency has declined over the years. If you start reading about the stuff people did to make games work on limited resources back in the 1980s it would make your head spin. Of course given the wider variety of hardware resources now that simply would be too difficulty to manage. And yes there are other reasons for this now.

The gaming industry has changed multiple times over the years in other respects. It's far more commercial now than it was in the 1980s and also far far more profitable. This is normal for any industry though and it doesn't bother me as such. The quality and originality of games has also somewhat declined although there are exceptions. Most large scale commercial gaming companies don't really need to make anything revolutionary. They can just feed off/milk a successful product the same way the movie industry has for years.
Part of the change in the nature of games is because they are marketted to a much wider audience though. Imagine trying to mass sell something like police quest where the game litterally bent you over like a red headed step child? It would definately have limited appeal. People are buying games expecting them to be the same/similar to the ones they liked before. Just look at the modern warfare series..

Having said all that, I play games to have fun. Is D3 fun? Yes. Is blizzards "rights management" annoying? Definately. I suspect that they are doing this for far more than copyright issues though.

if people don't like blizzard or the online only style of the game they need to STFU about it, quit the QQing and just not play it.


and so say we all
kthnxbai

Torchlight is developed by most of the same group that developed D2 for those that don't know.



For you I have a statement derived from World of Warcraft.
It maybe your $60 but collectively it's our hundereds of millions to billions.

I thought it was more like 'it might be your $15, but the rest of the raid paid $360'

granted the 360 is more like 135 for the content I do

I love Diablo 3. Its a great game, and I enjoy it.

There are flaws though in the bussiness practices behind lizzard and Diablo 3 though that has tained an other wise amazing game.

First flaw for me is being online all the time. The AH is VITAL to the play of the game. The majority of the time, for me at least, the AH is not working at all. I have to make money from the AH to get better items, but how is that possible if i cant even sell them? I would rather not spend an hour spamming chat trying to sell my items. Thats one aspect I disliked about d2.

Another flaw is how they went ahead and told everyone the awesome features d3 will have, when eventually they just toke a bunch of crap out (enchanting and pets for example). I am glad they are thinking about the core game play above all else, but you shouldnt freaking go out and tell people whats going to be in a game UNLESS your 100% sure its going to be in the freaking game at the very very end. This utterly pissed me off.


Lastly, the future issues that are going to arise with RMAH. No one should be able to use it without an authenticator. Too many stupid people are going have real money stolen from them because they are going to click the wrong link somewhere.


-_-

Jiman:
The sad part is that Bliz has much experience with all of that from WoW, but it's like they didn't take any of the lessons learned into account.
Oh well.

Elvesrus:
Yeah, I just changed the numbers to fit the D3 scope.

SC2 has been cracked. I have a cracked copy. But you can only play campaigns and not play with your friends.

I agree on Locket. IMO, those who are complaining does not understand the process on making a game as complicated as D3.
It is annoying if you can't play because of the maintenance but they are letting you pay for making the game better.

But, if you have been working in a company making software, you would also understand that there will be always complains and dissatisfaction no matter how great effort you put on making that software. lol

Why can't you sell items on AH? Items on AH are cheaper than the merchants and you can sell low specs rare items on higher price than selling it on the merchants ingame

I believe the second. That is, I'm in the "Do we expect to much from the gaming companies and the technology just isn't there for what we want?" group.

Diablo 3 is a game that has sold to millions on the first day and broke all sales records. I'm a programmer, and I can tell you that technology, bandwidth, and money doesn't scale linearly.

People are complaining about Error 37 (authentication server too busy) and stuff, but if you have a authentication server that can only handle 10000 logins per second, because that is how fast the fastest CPU runs, then that is the limit. You can't throw money at it to make a faster CPU that doesn't exist yet.

You can however have more authentication servers but if you go down this route, then what really happens is that you need to add additional code and hardware to perform load balancing between the multiple servers, and add additional overheads and security checks and communicate with each other to make sure the 2 (or more) authentication servers do not read/write to the same user at the same time in the database. These extra communication and overheads does not necessary mean faster and more simultaneous logins.

People do seem to think money can solve everything, but it really doesn't, hardware and stuff doesn't scale linearly due to overheads, and in economics, it is called diminishing returns, or sometimes diseconomies of scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseconomy_of_scale - yes this happens with hardware and coding as well).

Now, personally, I don't agree with the business decision of "always online" to require playing D3, this obviously is not related to technology or programming. However, players have always been able to vote with their wallets whether to buy a game or not. Blizzard does what they are doing because there is enough demand for it.

Anonymous, you're forgetting that a lot more people play Diablo than WoW. A whole lot more.