we had 34 grabs in "your" 48 hr time frame. 34 defends on a 5 man clan. I am not pointing this out to whine, bring it, but you wonder why people hate LAF so much and you claim not to farm the smaller clans out of the game like rogue just left. Well ELYSIUM is here to stay so do as you will, just don't wonder why your hated.
this is what happens when you play under such a large flag, the actions of a few gets laid upon them all.

hell after looking at is again here is a guy who grabbed us 6 times in 2 min.

Aug 15/10 2:23:35 PM SS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 18 A (+2 A)
Aug 15/10 2:23:33 PM SS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 39 A (+13 A)
Aug 15/10 2:22:04 PM PS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 59 A (+18 A)
Aug 15/10 2:22:03 PM PS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 83 A (+39 A)
Aug 15/10 2:22:02 PM PS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 85 A (+41 A)
Aug 15/10 2:21:58 PM PS Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF) Yings THronE (#563) (ElySee) 124 A (+108 A)

just don't wonder why -

lol an 18 ar grab, dude you suck at finding land, don't they have a training program in LAF about returns and dr? come to elysium we will show you how to grab -

Not that i agree with either side, but i do remember a time when ely used the same kind of bottom feeding tactics.

Bottom feeding only works if you keep them on the bottom.

Tho, sad to see a once earth giant being pushed around so easilly.

Where'd the rest of you go to? You are the same as rogue now was last set now :/

uh no pinky - we are not ROGUE

I am LAFing my head off.
Elysium is my favorite hunting ground at the moment but I'd really like to stick like to stick it up with the big 'uns when the DRs get absurdly big.

Its easy to see why clans like rogue and ely are disappearing from the game. Not that i'm happy about it.

When ee at least doubles in active players, there will be room for more middle ground clans like rogue and ely.

That said, i'm very impressed by TheFIST's use of politics to keep them in teh game.

I am saying you are in their spot now.. before rage merger you had more.. did they stay there?

Where the hell are your commie indies for early game tag protection?

Just one good commie indy with jets could keep people like this away... I mean farming of an alliance when you clearly have the advantage is prob not good game ethics however if you don't take precautions to defend your land then what do you expect?

Instead of blaming LaF, why don't you take some fault and see what YOU can do to prevent this. See they may have grabbed you but once you guys got a few retals and raped them I guarantee you they wouldn't grab you or at least not near as much, which is the point.

I disagree that we drive all small clans away from the game. I like to think that we give them the incentive to play better.

Plenty of alliances have pulled their way out, Imag is a good example. I really think that Imag wouldn't be around anymore if LaF didn't grab them so agressively in the early - mid 2000's.

If you don't want to get grabbed, then retal. Running a bunch of all explore farmers and cashers is not a good way for any tag to maintain retal capabilities, especially a small tag such as yourself.

People these days try to act as though tag protection is a inalienable right. Well guess what it isn't. Your tag needs to maintain its protection via retal capabilities, otherwise someone else is going to see a gain in grabbing you.

This is a game, some of you may not play to win but some of us do. People who join LaF join because they want to win, or do as well as they can. The game is designed in such a way that country grow off of eachother, perhaps that is a bad thing perhaps it isn't. That is the game though...

Im sure your countries wouldnt hit ely if ely just abed them in return and according to lafs own policies with 5:1 kill it means that ely can do whatever they want to anyone who does that kind of hits on them

You may be sure but I'm not.

Hmmm. Farming imag did make us better at retalling, but i seriously doubt it had any effect on imag staying or leaving teh game.

Also, it wasn't just LaF farming imag then, it was just about everyone. Even during war. Sometimes by our policer :)

We prevailed because we had no intentions of leaving the game. Our only intentions are outlined in our mission.

lol your police farmed you? Seriously? Ouch. And if elysium talks to the FR's perhaps they will auth a kill. Who knows?

they dont really need to ask for permission in all of this, a kill would show that they arent willing to be farmland and worst that can happend is that laf kills them all but thats nothin different them from being dead so not much to discuss

You make good points, ivan.

Will be interesting to see if ely can pull off a kill with 5 countries.

Would be impressive if its within the 48 hour retal window :)

Not true. Look at LaF's interactions with Paradigm and Neofed. Two clearly retal capable alliances. LaF clearly tried to systematically farm them out of the ability to retal. (so far they mostly have four commies who are getting reamed in retals... but the point is that being able to retal doesn't stop LaF from attacking you)

Someone needs to tell LaF that grabbing other alliances isn't acceptable. The only acceptable form of alliance-alliance interaction is random FSes and gangbangs, and that's the way we like it!

You're wrong. You drive them out. Maybe you give them a reason to play "better" (differently is a more apt term) but you are still driving them out.



Back when there were new players. Right now you're just getting your playmates to quit one by one until there is no one left.



Well, we'll see if that works. Ely is starting to get some good retals in now.



And you act as if you have some inalienable right to their land and that the only legitimate way for them to deter you from taking it is with land grabs. They have as much right to kill/AB as you do to land grab.



Basically LaF is bad for the game. Sure, you have a right to drive it into the dirt so you can climb on top of the dust pile, but that is exactly what you are doing - driving it into the dirt. Grabbing is one thing and is expected. Farming the way you are is driving players out. It is griefing.

Detmer: I don't see how that defeats what Requiem or I am saying.

DO you think the hits will become less or more given your retal success? If you continue to retal successfully, do you expect to see the hit rate stay as high?

Generally once people take a couple retals and lose a bunch of land, they realize that they can't hit that tag sucessfully.

It's the same way it's always been.

Learn to play the game properly, and retal. If you can't retal, you don't survive. If you can retal, people pact you and you start to grow. The only thing that has changed is the size of the server.

The only way to avoid this is no land grabbing, period. People always complain when they get it. At that point you're just going to shift the focus to people complaining about warring. Some will want to all-x netgain, and some war. At that point people will want to eliminate warring too.

Some of you just need to go play neopets.

Requiem said one CI with jets will stop you from being attacked. I am saying that is entirely untrue.

Clearly net land gains on retals discourages being attacked. I am not saying a clan shouldn't have to be able to defend itself to avoid being hit. I think that self-defense is the only reason a clan should not be hit.
I do think that if someone is unable to defend themselves they should not be exploited to the point where they want to quit. When I was in Camelot I got attacked every day in one rest but I never wanted to quit because it wasn't excessive. It was one random country in one clan and that was that. If I had been attacked 5-10 times/day from the same country and clan I probably would have quit long ago. It is a matter of self-imposed etiquette. It is good for the game. An alliance doesn't have to do it but in my opinion we are too small as a community to drive people out one at a time.

Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn
To cry, cry me a river
Cry me a river-er
Cry me a river
Cry me a river-er, Ely

LaF does not act as though we have the inalienable right to anything.

We dont' ask the community or other alliances to give us anything, we take what we want (and are capable of taking) and we lose what we aren't capable of keeping.

If anything LaF operates completely within the state of nature.

PDM is 26 countries, there is absolutely no reason why you should be having any problems maintaining retals.

In regards to Ely, well they aren't a upstart alliance, as such they have nobody to blame but themselves (and their past deicisions) for the position they are in. Plenty of alliances don't have a pact with LaF and are doing just fine, and not being grabbed by LaF.

If you're in the position Ely is, unless you get creative, you'll get overwhelmed with retals and farmed out of range no matter what. They'll run ops on you, disable missles, retal retals, and generally give you the run around when you try and handle it through FA's.

Be clever. Join GDI. Put yourselves into DR's. I'd say drop the land after you retal so you don't get fatter, but I think they got rid of this option...yay netters.

When all that doesn't work, kill their toprankers. Most people run with minute amount of defense anymore anyways. You might die afterwards but it will give your members some satisfaction. And then keep doing it.

Oh, and figure out how to recruit more. You're tiny.

exactly, and Kya speaks as someone who has had to deal with this first hand in the past.

But people aren't willing to try to internal solutions to their problems kya, its easy to come on AT and whine until you tag protection magically establishes itself all on its own.

Detmer, I was emphasizing that they don't even have ONE commie indy. Not that one commie indy is the savior for an entire tag, although with a 5 member tag it just might be :p

Anyways what you say doesn't negate the fact that despite their size they were not playing smart.

Well you should have said that was your point =P

At five members you can have four commies and a techer if you're hoping for tag protection. Being able to retal is not enough because people realize they can overwhelm you.

H4x0r, I think what Detmer is saying is that, in order to preserve the game (and yourselves), you should act with civility in order to keep people around. You're point is that it's a dog-eat-dog game, which is easy for you to say, considering you're the biggest alliance.

If you take advantage of everyone, though, you'll drive enough people from the game to the point where you're the biggest alliance in the game, because you're the only alliance in the game.

AoS, I have spoken to people (not H4) who acknowledge that they have no interest in preserving the game and just want to do the best they can until it is destroyed. If it lasts that is great by them but it is not a goal of theirs.

I just think that is too bad.

I played in some small tags tons of years ago like TW,Svea Rike etc the only way to do it is to get a couple of commies and some tyr/theo techers so you are able to retal EVERY hit coming your way.
If you cant retal you will become farmland quite fast.(happened in some other tags i played in but unlike this case we didnt whine like fluffes cause we sucked.) l2fluffing play or join some tag that give you protection.

Detmer: You have always been a retard and will always be a retard. Just stfu and crawl back to wherever pdm hides.

Oh and not to forget this is my personal view not LaF's view.
I think its called Survival of the Fittest(SoF) too perhaps join them and stop whining fluff

What is retarded about what I am saying?

Oh, that's right - you're just flaming because everything I have said makes sense and you don't like the reality of it.

LaF hasn't always been on top.

I've been leading in laF for over a decade now, I've seen our highs and our lows. We've been in situations where alliances over twice our size hit us multiple times in a day and told us if we retaled they'd FS us.

We didn't come here to AT and cry about it though.

Just because you join a website and put a tag on your country doesn't give you the right to not get grabbed. Alliance is very similar to the other servers in that sense, only instead of each individual country requiring to protect itself, it is each tag.

Don't run a rep cash start in express and then piss and cry when the stronger countries grab you.

The same applies for the alliance server, except here you get even more leeway in that not every single country has to worry about its complete defense.

I see LaF's point, and I'll freely admit I've been beaten into submission. Basically, they're big enough and smart enough to make overtly aggressive moves against groups of players that will have difficulty responding in kind. In LaF minds, or at least in the minds of their rhetoricians, this is somehow a magnanimous gesture aimed at teaching their competition how to play by their rules. Of course that smells bullfluffty, but it's hard to argue the logic that the big fish eat the small fish. "Man up!" they will say, set after set as the small tags get smaller in an ever-shrinking player base.

Is this fun? No less so than the last several years, which is to say, not very.

The Facebook app may save us all, but probably not in time to retain the non-LaF old-timey enthusiasts.

LAF is ranked to high

PDM and Ely and everyone else played this exact same way back in the day.

The only saints around here are monsters, and they aren't complaining.

alliances not that much bigger than Elysium have successfully fought LaF in the past.

A group led by a guy named maggots comes to mind.

Some people change their ways to reflect the times - others don't.

you aren't changing your ways to reflect the times, you are changing them to reflect your circumstance.

But just as the strategies you chose in the past got you to where you are now, choose this road instead of another now will only set you back further.

Not true. In primary, tournament, express and team I don't farm countries. I am not like you.

And you're saying I am giving up a competitive edge by not farming? That is how I interpret your strategy/road statement. I don't really care what the repercussions for my country are. I am well aware that I give up free acres this way. I don't care. I play this game for fun, not for my e-penis. I feel like you probably stress out about poor finishes, knowing that we all mock you behind your back for your ineptitude. =P

Just go and merge with RAGE, zip.

Yah... get some more members from somewhere and go back in a set or two.... 5 wont work and you wont get anyone to join at that point either...

We don't farm countries either.

a person is only allowed to attack an tag 2 times a day, on separate countries. Since when was single tapping countries "farming" ? Is that what you classify as "farming" when you say you don't farm in express or tourney? So you believe we should just all explore then I guess.

Well H4, you might want to check the news of those LaF countries hitting Ely because its more than 2 hits per day on separate countries in the Ely tag.

you are five people. stop whining and go play team server.

So then whats next, 6 and 7 member tags?

I dont think telling people to leave is really going to help this game grow much.

34 hits on the 5 elysee countries by LaF in the last 72 hours.

That includes the following violations of your stated policy:
Addiction is a terrible thing (#237) (LaF): 3 hits on one country in 24 hours, 5 in 48 hours. 7 total hits on that tag in the last 72 hours.
eatTorMINTicecreamUdai (#266) (LaF): 4 hits in the past 24 hours.
Currently Logged In (#253) (LaF): 6 hits on one country in the past 24 hours.
Lover not a Fighter (#501) (LaF): 4 hits on the Elysee tag on the 13th.
Boycotting Country Theme (#321) (LaF): Hit 3 of the 5 elysee tagged countries yesterday.

Other violations:
Scrub Paradise (#6) (LaF) has hit the xtx tag 5 times today.

It looks like you as a leader of your alliance are not effective at getting your members to follow alliance policies. It also looks like farming. Hopefully, for your alliance's sake, elysee doesn't have strong pacts.

It's the same way it's always been, how can people who have been around forever be so dense?

Those tags are not set on "will retal" otherwise they would be subject to the rule. They are on neutral. Guess why, because they don't retal effectively.

Hypocrisy gets annoying. If H4xOr had the stones to come out and say that Elysium is weak and LaF is strong, therefore allowing LaF to farm Elysium at will (atleast until they have to kill the 5 countries to preempt a suicide run), then there would be less of an issue. One might also think that an alliance that includes game admins in their membership might want to think about maintaining the illusion of fairness, if anything else to not further depopulate their product.

But I digress.