I agree with locket!

in the future, can you please keep posts to 2 sentences or less? the paint chips really killed my attention span...

locket you are part of LaF. Running an all explore low def country would be great but you are relying on LaF tag protection and some people hate LaF.

You took a risk to go low def and u paid. Oil is expensive and jets arent cheap either. If you were going to suicide LaF you would do what he did, thats how you suicide.

LaF didnt care when people suicided PDM in the past, or when anyone else got sucided for that matter.

ummm you are completely wrong.
LaF has often helped others kill suiciders, I personally have been in KR's with Evo, TIE and I think SoF killing suiciders that didn't touch LaF. Probably some more too.

Why is it that everyone claims to know what laf does/thinks/believes, but when people in LaF actually say things, we're just liars and spin doctors?

come on people....

mmm

this thread was made to discuss a single issue -- which to my knowledge was not based on anything other than a member just not liking LaF -- not some kind of farming reason.

scode, once again, misses the point...

actually, you quoted me discussing this exact issue and tried to generalize it to something very different.

so yes, you are missing the point.

my specific post which you quoted actually cites this issue directly, a rogue PDM member hitting LaF, not farming-based suiciding, which is an entirely different conversation.

the only propaganda here is the anti-laf propaganda you continually spew without actually knowing what is going on...

you admitted to not knowing what's going on in the game on this very thread.


you are pwned.

Pang, stop twisting things in order to make me look bad.

I in no way justified rape. I merely said that some people put themselves in circumstances where that is more likely to happen. It is obviously not the victim's fault, but if a girl goes to a party scantily clad, gets hammered and passes out, that's not exactly helping her situation, is it?

It has NOTHING to do with justifying rape -- but it does have to do with stupid people increasing the risk of something bad happening to them.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to spell it out to you but I guess I was wrong.

first, I'm not trying to make you look bad... that's just a fluffed up thing to say.

ok, let's take your example....

situation a) girl is walking to her car after work. She is wearing a pantsuit. She is attacked and bad things happen.

situation b) girl is at a party, scantily clad, passes out and bad things happen.

What I read, and your post has failed to counter, is that in situation b, it's not as much the guy's fault because she was putting herself in that situation.

My belief is that in both situations, it is still 100% the attackers fault, and he must take responsibility for his actions regardless of the state of the defendant.

now you're just postulating random thoughts, scode...

c'mon now... you've been out of this game so long, you've lost touch.

LaF isn't the big-bad alliance they used to be. They keep to themselves and don't do a whole lot to bully people around. The only time you ever see LaF mentioned is when people provoke them first.

stop trying to live in the past.

*shrugs* your entitled to your opinion.... however jaded and unfounded it may be :p

Other alliances have caught up to LaF in terms of their farming ferocity... it just happens that the biggest offender is already at war this set with... oh ya... PDM... over farming issues.

Interesting, eh? :p

For the record, directly after that suicide (within an hour) I broke "thatguy" losing 100+turns and 4million+ troops in an attempt to kill or disarm him before anymore damage could be done. (Yes that tells you what country I'm running, frankly I don't care, it's a game)
There were two other people in the room at the time that wanted to burn whatever turns they had in the effort, but because of the state of many of our countries they were too small to even FA into hitting range of the offending country.

Please don't say we did nothing, it's hard to get people to kill a country that did what many many untag's in this game wish they could do every set as they're raped and quit the game before they even have a chance to realize what being in an alliance can offer them.

It's very disheartening to read some of these posts bashing PDM by the very developer of this reincarnation of our once loved game...

And by once loved I mean 10 years ago, not the neglected crappy earth that we've lived with for so long...

I never said it wasn't the attacker's fault. In any situation it's the attacker's fault. But you make it sound like some people don't make stupid decisions that put themselves more at risk.

You can get lung cancer without smoking. However, smoking puts you more at risk for lung cancer. Hence, smoking is a stupid action that makes you more susceptible to lung cancer.

Is this a more palatable metaphor?

Yamaha:
as a developer/person, I like PDM... I like TAN, I like most of the folks I've talked to in PDM....

As a player, I don't agree with TAN, and I don't agree with most of PDM, but that's ok....

I don't think that example applies here either, TAN, as it was an external factor that caused it to happen, not something that developed from within. I get what you're saying, but I don't think it really applies here, because in the end, no matter what we do countries like #307 will still be able to cause mass damage and become 'unbreakable'.

You also forget that #307 had many, many jets. Likely enough to break almost any country in the game.
You can't really just say "buy up turrets so a guy with 17m jets can't break you" because, like I said in another post, if you run the math, you'll see that you're not longer netting at that point... you're destocking.

that is part of the problem with that whole theory of "just buy more defense!" which warmongers always preach. The way the game mechanics have worked for years favours the suicider over even the most well defended netters.

There were times that LaF would do EVERYTHING well to stop suiciders, run more def, keep stock out, etc. What happened? the suiciders grabbed less defended countries in MD and TIE to steal stock to fund land stealing from well defended LaF members with their stock out.

You can't push it back on LaF and say "be more prepared!" because even at the highest level of preparedness that we can realistically achieve, the advantage of the suicider is still quite high.

That has been a core problem that LaF has been working around for years, and if there was a solid solution to it (other than not netting) we, or other netters, would have already found it.

pang:
and guy has already said, if they had been at least reasonably defended, he'd have left them alone.
2 mil, 3 mil defence is not unreasonable to run
sub 1 mil is just ridiculous, and thus falls into the scantily clad drunk girl bracket from TAN's analogy. it's still the attacker's fault, however, the girl has certainly put herself moreso into the situation

drow he hit a guy that was over 19m raw break, your saying 2-3m is not unreasonable to avoid suicides he had fluffing 19m and still got absolutely raped.... you can only go so far to avoid suicides, if somoene grows in an alliance and then hits, you cant stop it without cooperation from the other alliances, your guy is spewing fluff when he says he hit people because they had too little d.

SolidSnake - you're saying he is doing the same amount of attacks if those 5 or 6 countries had 3-4m turrets and 400k tanks?

I don't think so.

I support PDM!

Multiple targets with severely inadequate defense was a large part the reason I chose LaF as my target, I didn't need 20+million jets to do it, and I didn't need PDM's tag protection for the majority of the set in order to get the amount of military I had to do it, I could easily have run untagged and accumulated enough resources to buy just a few million jets and had almost the same effect. I made the decision to suicide on a whim more or less, it wasn't something I planned out, certainly not something I'd been thinking about all set, I intended to fight a long drawn out war with NA, stonewalling, and restarting and having as big an impact on the war as I could until the end of the set. However with the introduction of new alliances to our side NA was quickly destroyed and it seemed that the remainder of the set would be quite boring. So literally overnight I selfishly decided to make it more fun by selfishly waging a one man war with LaF.

It's a testament to both my impatience and lack of planning that I didn't take even more from LaF. I'd FA'd away and lost through breaking most of my stockpile during the war, so I could have been a LOT bigger. I also didn't bother to either store turns to make more hits, or sell off what was left of my stockpile properly (I removed everything from the market and sold on the PM). Had I done this I could conceivably taken the land (more land), jumped, and help it all set. This is actually what I wanted to do but I got carried away and decided I wanted to hit sooner and less effectively rather than later. After the conversion to dictatorship and losing more resources than I anticipated I decided to drop the land to compensate for what I lost in military with regaining my old tech levels. Thankfully LaF allowed me to compensate for my impatience by failing to launch a coordinated attack on me until 5 minutes after I got my remaining 17 million jets back from PS, you can blame PDM for not killing me all you like, but the fact of the matter is they did put a lot of hits in, but I was ready to stonewall the whole 22 hours, and war-ravaged Paradigm simply didn't have enough countries in a position to break me to be able to kill me off in a single coordinated run. LaF did - but they didn't.

I included Goku's country as well simply because it was the largest country in the game, in hindsight maybe I shouldn't have - but I could and I did.

Heh.

I warned Parallax literally minutes after you suicided that you would suicide again and that LaF should kill you immediately.

I also told him I would be setting up a KR ASAP. Well, we started hitting you soon after.

Then people have the audacity to accuse us of not trying to kill you quickly enough. The AUDACITY. Like they didn't even check the goddamn news. Didn't bother to see that we started hitting you almost immediately afterwards.

I booted you from the site, thatguy, literally while you were still making your last attacks on them.

I set you up as a kill target almost immediately after you had finished.

But apparently it wasn't good enough to silence the nay-sayers. :P

And then Pangaea came to AT with the RAGE-SHADES on.

you know I always thought that if a suisider attacked you, that you were supposed to kill it....not whine that another alliance should kill it

just like me...against NA...if I had had high SDI I could of stone walled for hours with the amount of jets I had

also Pang....a few pdmers, myself included had 10million + jets to retal NA's huge countries (llaars being one of them) that had 9 million + turrets, max weapons and 2 defense allies and some were dicts making even more jets needed.

Hell maybe thatguy had that many jets to do retals on NA at first, then to break the biggest of them during the war. Then when both of those needs were out, he got bored, saw he had preped his country to be a power country, and wanted to do something with it. In his mind that was to teach LaF a lesson.

You do have to realize that we needed heavy retaliers to deal with larger alliances landgrabbing us. (BTW NA don't hit a guy in pdm next time that has 400 turrets but 12million jets then declares himself to be wari! rofl) (this was not thatguy btw)

This will be my last post on this matter, but everyone has to realize, including the LaF countries that got grabed that it is a game, making a whole other alliance suffer isn't going to help in the long run (or in this case the short run)

No TGD, I did not have 12 million jets and 400 turrets. That would be stupid.

I had 19 million jets and 4 turrets.

Heh.

Anyways, that was my last post on this subject as well.

*probes TGD*

and then dagga came with hate in his heart and tried to ruin the game.... something he accused me of doing...

ironic :p

It clearly wasnt in thatguys mind to teach laf a leason for running low d, he just hit whoever he could, hes trying to justify what in alliance server is an unjustifiable course of action.

If you have problems, deal with them as an alliance, or do what he did and cause which ever alliance you belong to a great team of grief. Acting as an individual doesnt to the detriment of your alliance doesnt fly on alliance server, everyone knows that. He couldnt of done that untagged, its just that simple, and any claims to the contrary are bs.

SS: so you're saying that because thatguy had 19 million jets when he suicided, it negates the fact that LaF countries SHOULD have had at least a reasonable def?
We aren't talking about like everyone having say 20 million turrets, but really... you're theoretically sitting on 30k acres, and only have a TOTAL break (that's turrets tanks and troops) of like 800k? that's just plain lazy and retarded.

the only thing that this is going to do is make people look at LaF to grab them now

with Ghost acres it is very tempting to grab as the attacker, even when retalled, will still come out with 800 + acres

in my opinion LaF should be less worried about this set and thatguy, and more worried about next set and being targeted for land.

All this talk of countries with very low defense is going to attract some people's attention

Even I, who used to only be an explorer started landgrabbing countries that would retal me and did and even after getting hit, I was comming out ahead. Before I was killed by NA, I was GAINING land from them even with them attacking me and taking 2,500 acres per hit (as I was retaling for that much and gaining 800 + in ghost acres)

yeah, you may retal 100%, but if the attacker realized that he will come out better anyways, the attacker will still land grab you

laf has alot of players that put the time into their country and have a skill level that can avoid retals from good players, other alliances have very few if any...

and drow do i really need to quote you again?

but all this is stupid anyway, i might just come back next set for which ever alliance has the least pacted alliances and just rape everyone, not like anyone would be able to retal, give people something real to complain about meh

I never said I was trying to teach LaF a lesson, I said a big part of the reason I chose them was because they were fat with inadequate defense, they were just the best target by far, more land, less losses, less readiness dropped, less oil.

And I never tried to justify my actions, I DID IT BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY.

Which it totally was.

Pissing off an alliance as big and good as laf might be a poor idea for next set or any set i'd say. Unless you want to do as thatguy did and screw your alliance by suiciding.

Its always funny, until it happens to the side you're on....