Firstly, you and i both know i never had your ear, the fact we were more civil than we are now doesnt mean much, as can be seen by you taking an extract from our conversation, spinning it, and making yourself look like an even bigger idiot.

Fact is that you(and by you I mean the admins in general) dont know enough about the game dynamics to accurately predict how changes will impact the game and yet you refuse to listen to people that do. Then when you get called out for it, you complain about the community being negative. I dont give a fluff if you dont talk to me about it in fact id prefer you didnt, just talk to someone that fluffing does so that you dont waste the time you do spend attempting to improve the game.

well at least you value your own opinion, SS :p

that "one aspect of our conversation" is a pretty big aspect, but we can leave it if you like... however, you are one of the key reasons why I stopped paying attention to LaF -- your self-serving, "the game mechanics are only good when they work the way i wnt them to" attitude gets so old so quick. lots of laffers were good about it, but you were always a jerk about how you brought your opinion to the staff. this thread is no different.

I'm working on design and user experience stuff to avoid having to deal with mechanics because of bullfluff like this. but regardless, "not knowing the dynamics" and the folks being whiny jerks aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. i personally do not claim to know a ton about the mechanics anymore having been away from them for so long, so I typically don't weigh in on them. but i thought the opinion was that any change is better than no change and that things get refined.

like qz said, this is a test set with new rules... flaming us about them is sort of stupid when we pre-qualified it as new rule testing.

SS-- A lot of what you believe to be your wisdom is mearly opinion. There are several ways to do everything, your way isn't always the best.

I guess if you want it your way you could make your own game and see how many people play it?

I doubt you'll lift a finger much less do the same amount of work that pang has put into something for our entertainment.

You have the choice of not playing if you don't like what Pang does, and yet you're still here playing.

Nice to see grudges being held to the detriment of the game.

Bonus

wow

It's funny, because it's assumed that Pang speaks to PDM about anything anymore since he decided to stop paying any attention to this game.

...he doesn't. :(

Except for the fact that pang clearly said he doesn't work on the mechanics anymore, so your strawman goes right up in flames. Especially since he IS still doing lots of work on improving other aspects of the game.

+1

dagga's sig needs updating.

I'm lazy and not invested enough here to do the hard work. Complaining is easy.

It seems to me that the best alliances will determine through experiments exactly how this new system works and will optimize their KR's more by having the right nw hitters for each target to maximize returns at different stages of the KR.

We already determined from the restart changes that crippling a country is sometimes far more effective than killing it. To the point where people were killing their own countries just to restart.

We'll figure out this stuff too, but it will take some time and effort. Maybe longer since there isn't much warring this set. But everyone could create Express accounts and go crazy, right? ;)

If these new attack changes are going to stay, then I suggest that GSes do a bit more damage than just killing civs and food, since civs can be regained quickly, and food can be bought or recalled from the market.

Maybe have GSes affect a country's PCI for a limited time or something?

ya, it is pretty sad. laf never would have started this kind of smear campaign (including actively trying to ruin another server to prove a point) if I was still actively playing there :(

i also find it highly ironic that folks complain about the lack of changes and then when we make changes, folks complain about the changes as if everything has to be 100% perfect on the first release. For this reason, I'd like to turn war completely on its head; maybe make it so that SS/PS's are more effective after you BR/GS/AB your target to soften up their defenses and make it so that killing is not the goal of war. as I said on a higher-up forum, i'd rather write a new system from scratch and balance it than try to rebalance the current war system, which is entirely flawed to begin with -- why take people out of the game so quickly and easily when the time investment to get to the point of being ready to fight is so high?

Exactly what I've been asking myself for a long time, and one of the things I truly hate about the game.

I kind of agree with removing the spam attack button, though F5+enter, backspace + enter, or even spam clicking the send attack button all do similar things, just marginally slower. To be able to remove that factor as well would make stonewalling easier.

I can see how as a defender stonewalling is now harder, if the civ returns are so wildly variable. In the past, the best wallers are those who knew exactly when to run turns to maximise the number of hits an enemy had to make in order to achieve the kill, to the point where a good waller could run a killrun out of turns completely.
It also makes it harder from the defender's point of view to judge when to buy up some, to keep your opponent hitting and thinking that you are offline, and when to buy up massive amounts to stop the run dead I suspect.

Yeah, it's like you spend a month building everything up, only to have it all yanked away from you in a couple minutes or so.

Ruin another server? I can only assume you refer to the primary mess in which other people have already been abusing it for ages now. Perhaps someone should enforce the rules as they have been stated to everyone involved there.

And if no one complained about what they disliked about the changes then nothing would become perfect. There are better ways to complain but that is still the truth no matter which way it happens.

there's complaining, there's suggesting things, then there's being belligerent.

this set has been about belligerence -- folks from within LaF planned to go into this round (in primary) with the expectation of butting heads with the staff/mods and that has spilled over onto alliance as well.

oh and to clarify, i'm not saying that laf has ruined alliance and has moved onto primary; just that laf the alliance-entity decided to try and make it a mission to screw up primary to try and force our hand in the way laffers perceive as being the best way.

Pang, I don't agree with that assessment at all.

Assuming Chewi and his friend are in LaF, all they did was go into Primary to play it, see vivanick abusing the solo dynamic for the umpteenth time, and decide to take matters into their own hands. The majority of the Primary server actually was glad to see them do it. I say this as someone that doesn't even play alliance, but plays specifically Primary as my main server...

I think it would be helpful if there was someone on the admin/mod team who played Primary. BobbyATA offered to mod the server on alternating resets, and I think it's a generous offer that y'all should accept. He could help explain the issues and dynamics from the perspective of a recent player, and prevent things like the head butting that happened between players and administration this reset.

There's always a need for more cowbell!

I think it would be helpful if there was someone on the admin/mod team who played other servers and actually knows how to play the game and doesn't just follow a script that some in their alliance wrote.

I think it would be helpful if the community was more civil though. These changes were specifically made seeking feedback. If you do not understand what the word feedback means, buy a dictionary or Google it. Everything does not have to start or end in a fight.

I give the admins a thumbs up cause I truly appreciate the restraint they have, it's a good thing I am not running this game, I don't have the patience for half the crap that goes on.

That being said, it is a fact of life and history has proven it time and time again that it is in human nature to reject or push back to change.

@The Admins, this is the process that takes place every time change happens. There will always be push back. It's a fact of life. Keep up the thick skin.

@The Community, with every new change/ update to a software there are always bugs that will need fixing/tinkering. Does it surprise me that so many players in this game don't understand that yet (even though I consider anyone that plays this game some sort of geek at some level, and many have bee playing this up to a decade now), no it doesn't surprise me after all most of the players in this game have never made a top 25 anywhere and don't really know what they are doing.

Give the changes some time and learn/adapt.

Just my 0.2 but I don't really see a problem with the change?

Sure it makes everything a little more random, but imo thats a good thing. I dislike warring/killing being robotic.

Pang, as far as my knowledge goes, Chewi/LaF'ers didn't go into Primary with the sole objective of screwing it up, they only started discussing the idea when it was clearly obvious there was other people "cheating" and nothing was getting done about it.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

You guys should be glad you have admin's and mod's that are active and care about/freshen up/make changes.

Just my 0.2.

Crest we do play other servers. qzjul plays here in alliance. Pang I am not sure what he is doing. I play here in alliance, and team...sometimes express if I am in the mood to lol at my crappy express playing skills. Warster plays in FFA. Foog plays sometimes. Martian just plays with himself. The forum mods all play in places too. I am currently asking for another mod to help me with primary and tourney. I am not sure if I am allowed to currently say who that person is. Also I know you and I butt heads alot...but this is one of the best posts I have ever agreed with you on......did someone hack into your forum account? j/k :P

That depends on how you look at "cheating" on that server. When there was nothing really set in stone, it makes it difficult for me to decide what I could go by. And if I was never sure I did ask for a second opinion. I realize most of the server thinks I am just ignoring them. I am not. If you look at the glass from my viewpoint, I have felt that the people on primary only want certain other players gone, and then when I delete the players that are liked...the mess gets started. As for the LaF thing...it was brought to us that there is a post out there on LaF's boards to come into primary and try to "make a point" and make the mod/admins life difficult. I don't know if it is true or not. Seems that the post part on doing something must be true from your statement. I would hate to think that such a thing would go on...as I really have always like LaF.

I don't know why it would look like the issue has to do with "liked" or "disliked" people from your viewpoint. It had to do with the initial (and repeated, habitual) abusers getting away with it, and the policing players getting deleted. Since then, the initial troublemakers also have been deleted which has satisfied me... though I do feel for Chewi since he had been told it wasn't a deletable offense and found himself purple without fair warning.

[quote poster=SolidSnake; 19752; 365149][quote poster=archaic; 19752; 365134]

SS

All I can say is LOL. I had some mild respect for you but that is just flat out BS. I´ve discussed multiple changes with Pang/Qz over the year and was listened to some of the input I gave actually have been taken into consideration and some times used to change things or sometimes used to re-open a discussion on w/e we were discussing.

And I'm no evoer or PDMer. Fact is even when SOL and evo were all out going at it for 2 - 3 sets discussion between me about game mechanics were neutral unbiased and even at best pleasant talks. The difference between getting listened to and being ignored is how you phrase your feedback.

Going on a flat out rampage screaming and yelling like a baby won't get you nowhere. Constructive feedback with proper examples and possible thoughts on solutions or w/e will get you listened to.

So either get back under the troll bridge and stop yelling like a baby OR...... be a bit more constructive and have an honest conversation.

I havnt posted any feedback here because i gave the mods the details of what impacts the changes would have and why there were negative before the set even began, the fact that it was ignored, then the changes came into effect, i was proven right and they continue to ignore it is the reason i criticise them. Its one thing to have unexpected results when trying out new things, but when its obvious that the results will differ from what they post are their goals in implementing the changes then they are either ok with the impact that the changes have despite them not being what they posted they intended, or they are ignoring them, and the lack of statement on it suggests they are ignoring it.

Hence criticism...

How long are you going to act like you were good for laf? you hold the record for lowest membership upon a don's retirement, i mean seriously...

And just pointing out the obvious, but for someone to run a smear campaign against you, they would have to say things that arnt true.

I recall most of the people complaining about people not playing solo were not in LaF? The issue was solved (in a way) by the primary mods so it is a non issue anymore.

Yawn.

lol SS. like I said so many times internally, at least you value your own opinion highly because you are typically the only one who does.

All internal infighting/dirty laundry about laf should be delegated to pangs bedroom.. :P

Two sets where ely and dd had merged into laf is the membership of when you were "actively trying"? really? you're going to try and spin things even as insignificant as that?

And do you really want to bring up your "winning" guerrilla wars given what you've done? seriously? perhaps you'd like to share how you helped "win" those guerrilla wars. That would be a bundle of laughs given recent events to see you try and explain that now.



You were frozen out when i was don, and the only people that wernt think less of you than i do, so its funny that you think you have a clue about what went on during that time. You have no idea to this date what happened and why that reset, but i can tell you a few things that did, we won two wars, and we finished higher nw than sol/ix combined (although i would still say we lost that) and we gained members, again, as we did every reset that i was don. And just to further illustrate how little you know about what was going on, i didn't ask sof to join that war, so why would they have? And as far as sour grape war with pdm does that even merit a response? if you want to cosy up with your new buddies in pdm be my guest. You talked more fluff about them than i do before joining (and i talk alot of fluff about them) but now act like you're bff's. But that is just typical pang by now isnt it....




Clearly your idea of above and beyond differs from mine, because my idea of above and beyond is rebuilding an alliance from struggling to stay 2nd tier and turning it back into the top alliance in the game, while your idea of above and beyond is apparently taking an alliance from top tier, through a half dozen scandals alienating every ally possible and quiting when struggling to stay second tier...

There is a reason you're the only ex don that has had his access removed from the laf site, and its not because you were/are a positive influence on laf, you are a fair weather leader and you always were, as much as you big up your political clout laf didnt grow while you were a leader, it was always ranging or shrinking in membership and after a few sets of you as a leader laf had next to no allies left.

And if i am the main reason for alienating you from laf, thank you for the complement as far as i am concerned.

wow SS just laid a smackdown.

OH YEAH? Well I WAS DEMOTED IN SOF 4X and kicked TWICE!
SO THERE!!

thats because you look funny.

Wait Hanlong still has access?

tl;dr:
SS is a flufftard. my contribution to laf should be obvious, even to the dumbed trolls. I reread this quick for obvious spelling/grammar stuff and it's boring. ss i going to go off again and then we'll do it all over again! fun times!

lol SS, that's such a jaded interpretation of so many things that you yourself should know better about. and you're moving into such baaaad territory for laf with that line of discussion.

i wasn't even fluffing there or active when you were don. call that freezing out if you want, but I played in NA, worked on Boxcar and only got active again during the tail end when the war vs evo was coming up. I remember it very clearly, you should be no stranger because you often up and left because you didn't agree with the political direction (not set by me, btw). When I was back, you also talked to me daily about random alliance-focused stuff and i knew all the underhanded stuff going on at that time, so I was sure frozen out there :p

You also put far too much emphasis on spinning my half set as "ok, i'll be the don so the alliance doesn't fold". I NEVER had any interest in being Don, ever. seriously! :p once i started boxcar i was enjoying being the "don" of that instead and my quality of leadership definitely went down... but my quality of hosting site went up quite a bit, and laf were the primary beneficiary of that. or does that not count because I didn't keep it secret for LaF only and only gave LaF a slight advantage by letting them be beta testers for new functionality, often suggested by LaFers?

And did you not always get that I did things with a higher purpose -- especially during EE? I myself have said I do not like how I "lead" during EE because I was trying to make LaF too nice and open in our policies. So feel free to flame me there because I would flame my past self for thinking that if we tried to be nicer, other on the server would too. Of course when I left, LaF essentially became the SoL of the server but with a cheating scandal as well, implicating a few friends of mine, which was extra awesome. Good job "rebuilding" there, a shining example the server can be proud of! I seriously saw all the work hanlong put in because I had head access for a bunch of it until I ASKED to have it removed. My godfather access was stripped because I made a post criticizing laf's policies -- a right afforded typically to Godfathers, but SS and Hanlong were on the anti-pang train; hanlong for political purposes and SS because he's that kind of guy.

thankyou for continuing to burn bridges, but I think it's you that is the cancer on LaF -- but the kind that continues to infect it. everything you try to spin negatively toward me could be set about yourself too, but the key difference is that unlike you, when the going gets tough for laf i was there. i didn't sit back and criticize people or act like my way is the ONLY way it can be done, and everything else must be wrong. it's not about laf, it's about your fluffing ego and it always has been. i lead for laf, through thick and thin. whenever they needed me, I was there. For the better part of a decade.

when laf needed a new site, I put that together (and since you will flame me otherwise, of course tc was a great help, but he had no clue wtf he was doing beyond the db/bots until the site was completely done. he didn't know php or html/css, not that I was great at the time either). when laf needed someone to step up and do something to keep the alliance running, I was there. when the game was in danger of dying and the laf community dispersing, i took the lead there and gave laf a new home. If LaF was in trouble, I would still come back and help out to make sure they didn't die off.

if you sit there and flame me as if everything that's ever been wrong with laf is my fault and that my entire contribution is less than worthless, i think that reflects more poorly on you than me. my contribution to laf is fairly obvious. but if you had never played in laf, laf goes on and does it's own thing because you were a decent HOW, but certainly not a great don by any means, and easily replaceable if any of like 7 ppl were available. if i'd never played in laf, laf doesn't exist anymore for any number of reasons from no one to lead to no site to no game to quitting the game because you feel like there is no admin going to bat for you. that's frankly the bottom line and nothing you do can or will ever change that fact, bud. that being said, I have no desire to ever lead anywhere ever again because I've found better ways to spend my time, including developing stuff for EE, with the time I typically spent interacting with flufftards like yourself in an ingame context. so shut the fluff up because you're making a bad situation worse between me and laf.

finally, to others, I really don't want to toot my own horn, but frankly my contribution to LaF should be obvious and that's why I've been so pissed that many of the folks from LaF that I used to be close with have been going out of their way to create so much hostility in the fallout from the cheating scandal as if I enjoyed laf getting caught. it's like you expected me to go and clean it up for you. i don't think anyone in laf other than maybe marshall has ever grasped how fluffty that was for me considering my expectations of laf and the fallout that I was forced to deal with at a very busy time outside of the game.

It has seemingly gone both ways a bit Pang. I understand how some things have been said to you but I have seen a few comments that seemed a bit snide too.

That says it all. SS, you are losing all credibility here brother. You should have thought twice before writing this one.

absolutely. it's not about the things said necessarily, it was the fact that so quickly a few folks went from "yay we love you pang!" to "omg, you made up a cheating scandal to frame us" and then after it's confirmed that the cheating is real, the tone changes, not to an apology for the accusations, but to "why did you make a post blasting us so much? why did you post something written by a committee as if it could be seen as yours?" and that becomes the official LaF stance toward me from most folks, including pretty much all of leadership. and part of the validation is that I recently trashed your current direction -- something that happens all the time from godfathers.

The only positive thing that did was galvanize the fact that I wasn't involved. Can you imagine if I had come out and said "it's not that bad -- they just looked at info on evo, they didn't do anything bad at all to the game proper" how much OTHERS would flame me and perceive me as an admin? No matter who that was, they would get the same reaction from me. You have no idea how disappointed I was when I found out who was involved.

Hanlong has no access. SS seems to have forgotten about hanlong and I'm assuming gramberto lost access.

Duque did too.

SS lost access while he played in SoF as well. :p

Pang I meant that I have seen some from you as well :P I just wish everyone would drop the topics involved with you personally though.

Son Goku lost access today when we decided to farm him tomorrow.

ya, i definitely made some toward laf. me not being happy with laf is accurate -- but it's mainly with some of the current leadership who burned the bridges with me (see above) and the general direction of the alliance a few rounds ago before the cheating scandal broke. and that was fueled by other laffers who agreed with those opinions.

and I do believe that laf is somewhat hypocritical in their decisions based on what they (including me) were preaching when LaF was on the receiving end of having their rounds ruined. just like I feel many sol'ers are hypocritical in how they preach the same arguments I preached about fair play, not ruining rounds, etc while not acknowledging that they were guilty of it too when put in a similar position.

You know how to reach me if you want answers to any of the things you mentioned in your replies, Pang.

Otherwise I see an argument between two former LaF leaders that is mainly personal.

SS holds no leadership position either (he's a godfather/advisor), I haven't seen any current LaF leaders fighting or insulting you. If you have concerns about LaF you would be more successful speaking to me directly, otherwise it sounds like politics when you preach to the AT community.

mmm i'd honestly been told that SS was super active and a top-level leader very recently; one of the more active leaders on Council, doing strat and planning stuff, etc. this was including while the breach stuff was going on, so fairly recent. i mean, he was the first laf "leader" type to message me when the stuff happened -- even before hanlong or TC! :p
I definitely equate him to LaF leadership because I know as well as anyone that he has a seat at the table as recently as I bothered to check into who was active. the idea that an alliance can just say "this person isn't leading" and absolve yourself of any and all of that person's actions and/or posts really doesn't fly with me... i mean, that's the reason LaF went to war with Evo, eh? It just seems like a copp out that folks use when they want to try and distance themselves from something inflammatory rather than dealing with it.

i'll chat with you otherwise sometime because you and I also had a chat that was not great and was never resolved, imo. i don't really care about the AT community in general; i'm just airing grievances since the thread went down that path. no one from laf has really bothered to engage me regarding issues and IMO LaF are the ones that wronged me -- so why am I reaching out to mend the fences broken by LaF'ers over a LaF-driven issue? :-/ I appreciated your invite back to laf "regardless of what happened", but i'd rather play in a place that could use the members.

He's had very limited time for the last 2+ months.

You know how active he usually is in the war process, I don't believe he ran a single warchat last set due to time constraints.

Regardless of who reaches out to who, it won't happen over AT.

SS was complaining about the mechanics of the game while you were in LaF in case you forgot pang. This isn't something new for him caused by recent events.

I put a spell on you!