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qzjul Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Jun 28th 2012, 22:51:39

Hi All;

I've been working on a new style of attacking for special attacks; (GS & BR & AB) for the past year and a half, and we're finally putting it in, as I managed to get some testers in a chat room to do an actual killrun. This has been active on our alpha servers for about a year, but it's somewhat difficult to simulate the dynamics of a server with just a couple people, so we're putting it in now knowing that it will probably be not quite as perfectly balanced as we should like, but knowing that it's not too outrageous either.


The basic premise behind this change is:

1) The number of defending units should matter.
and
2) Attackers should have to "break" a person to some degree.


What this basically means is that, the more of a defending unit you have on hand (even while being successfully attacked) relative to what you're defending (population, buildings, food), the less your losses are.

Also, attacks start slower and ramp up as there are more attacks on that country within 24 hours.


This was primarily aimed at relieving more individual play of the devastating power of a bunch of random attacks if you actually have what could be considered a reasonable defence, while maintaining the ability of alliance-type play to do large amounts of damage; and hopefully to also curtail some of the more rampant abuse of the Attack Again button.

The secondary motivation was to re-enable stonewalling; as more of a defending unit on hand lowers the kill rate, buying up that defending unit immediately will drop the kill rate and extend the run, in theory; how exactly this will be used in drawing things out I'm not sure, but the potential is there.


While I tweaked the numbers to make kills a little easier from what our preview run today was (so I haven't actually tested this particular formula), it should be slightly more difficult than a current killrun. The usual DR and networth modifiers remain in effect.


This will roll out on to ALL servers as they reset; it will be go live on Team effective immediately!


Finally, I must stress the Beta level of these changes; as we've tested it back and forth with some different numbers, but could never quite get a really good feel for it, we know approximately HOW it works, but not exactly what it will do. Please report anything unusual on the Bugs & Suggestions forum, and I will look into them as they come up. Depending on how things go we may tweak things for future resets.


Once again, thanks for all your continued support!


-EE Admin Team

Edited By: qzjul on Oct 2nd 2013, 19:08:42
Finally did the signature thing.

Trife Game profile

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5817

Jun 28th 2012, 23:24:19

Yes finally some changes! We will see how these changes turn out

bstrong86 Game profile

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2482

Jun 28th 2012, 23:30:30

Glad i read alliance Forum sometimes.i would have never seen this
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dLpLow Game profile

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Jun 28th 2012, 23:38:58

cool very cool
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Lobo Game profile

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442

Jun 29th 2012, 0:02:57

interesting... I think....
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The only real progress lies in learning to be wrong all alone. ~Albert Camus

Original SANCT...

locket Game profile

Member
6176

Jun 29th 2012, 0:20:09

Abuse of the attack again button? if you put something there that can be clicked fast it will be used... I'd say its being used as it should be unless there is something I dont know about.

Any idea by how much this will increase hits to get a kill?

blid

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Jun 29th 2012, 0:58:06

Wait... so if I send just enough to break someone, I won't get as much land? If I have extra offense laying around, I should send it to get more land? Did landgrabbing on individual servers basically get nerfed here?
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Osso Game profile

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164

Jun 29th 2012, 1:05:18

I am pretty sure, judging by the title, that this only affects special attacks, not SS and PS.
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blid

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Jun 29th 2012, 1:08:35

Ahhh you're right, I'll leave my dumb post up there so everyone can see how bad at reading I am :)
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Alin Game profile

Member
3848

Jun 29th 2012, 1:43:38

Correct me if i am wrong - this should increase the kill run time and will protect a little bit more our work ( countries ).

Dark Demon Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 2:31:43

are we trying to take away Any war on this game
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Warster Game profile

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4172

Jun 29th 2012, 2:50:16

DD I've seen the numbers IF the person doesn't get online u will kill the country in basically the same amount of turns. This just helps stonewallers as currently unless the killing run is very slow, its very hard to stop it

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synoder Game profile

Member
1664

Jun 29th 2012, 2:57:33

Are the losses based on specific military (ie. troops for gs) or is it lumped together?

Also with GS, most people are not going to log out with much food on hand so say I am running a farmer and have 0 food when I log off is that going to throw the formula out of wack?

"Also, attacks start slower and ramp up as there are more attacks on that country within 24 hours."

Can you explain that a little more?

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 3:09:48

Originally posted by Dark Demon:
are we trying to take away Any war on this game


+100

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Go play utopia!
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
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blid

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Jun 29th 2012, 3:40:06

LOL

Sounds like a good change to me
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

m0bzta Game profile

Member
41,618

Jun 29th 2012, 3:42:02

Why not Add in a new attack or a new missle

something like that would be nice to see
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KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 3:49:03

Make it easier to kill from my phone!!!!!!! No "attack again" button here man..... WTF!?!?!
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)

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m0bzta Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 3:57:56

or how about add in more to the explore rate

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iScode Game profile

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5720

Jun 29th 2012, 5:14:10

Thanks QZ appreciate your work.
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Devestation Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 5:36:52

fluff your phone. Oppression of Internet Fridges will not be tolerated.

How will this affect minimum returns? Can we have an example news results of a kill to show us what it would look like?

Karim Game profile

Member
761

Jun 29th 2012, 6:02:40

Nice! Then i should bother trying to log on to wall again!

Atm i wasn't even bothering....
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Murf Game profile

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1224

Jun 29th 2012, 6:13:24

So who got to test this?

enshula Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 7:02:39

did you forget to post the formulas?

also doesnt this risking making wars like tie vs rival not work, or snowball to whoever gets an early lead making kills impossible for the other side

and promote mass coalition style wars?

to me this seems to favour more the wall at very low pop getting much better without making much difference to walling at high pop

since your defence:pop multi is guaranteed to be easier to raise when pop is low, if you can halve gains then it will be way cheaper than halving gains when pop is full

i was hoping for walling to go the other way so that walling would be more desirable early at higher pop

although depending on the weight of total hits per time period (24h?) its possible that increasing pop late will have 0 or little effect particularly if total hits applies DR to the benefit of defence:resource ratio

enshula Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 7:03:48

any plans to implement attack ramping on missiles and spyops as well?

locket Game profile

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6176

Jun 29th 2012, 8:05:37

I think spyops should not have a DR or at least it should be a lot higher -_-

Makinso Game profile

Member
2908

Jun 29th 2012, 8:28:52

It depends enshula. There are a lot of variables when it comes to your hypothesis of the implemented changes. I think we can only see by trial and error if this will work for the community or not.

In the end influx of players is still the most important for this game. Beyond all changes.

Don't get me wrong though I think this is in an interesting change! ;)

iNouda Game profile

Member
1043

Jun 29th 2012, 9:43:30

We need more protection for our countries. Make killing harder, netting easier.

bstrong86 Game profile

Member
2482

Jun 29th 2012, 10:38:43

@koh.

I didnt have attack again button..did a little digging found that when i go to option there will b something for attacks style or something and i use default.
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UltraMarines Game profile

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343

Jun 29th 2012, 14:29:33

Thank's for all your work

Son Goku Game profile

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745

Jun 29th 2012, 14:47:12

Are you planning on posting the new formula?

enshula Game profile

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Jun 29th 2012, 14:49:58

no walling = no change
therefore
walling = more hits to kill

therefore 1 waller in small war matters more than 1 waller in big war

tempo is slowed down x amount but only given walling

therefore it promotes potentially silly coalition conflicts to increase critical mass and reduce hassle

basically my position is warring and netting should be made casual friendly at a moderate level, not exactly top 100 or winning, but higher than what wed expect a newbie to start at

this for warring promotes the opposite of that

qzjul Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Jun 29th 2012, 15:08:20

enshula: it *should* be better to buy up first; as it will dramatically lower the pop lost at the start, which is the larger portion, meaning you should end up with more population left by the time you hit 5civ/hit; at least, that's my gut feeling, again, we've not conducted a whole war with it.

Part of the point is that buying more troops early is good *even if* it's not enough to stop them from breaking. At least, that was part of the idea; also that a well-built country is better than not. If you have 0 tanks and get AB'd it should look somewhat similar to a current run, but if you have like 10k tanks on 1k buildings it should take 10-30 hits to ramp UP to what we would consider a normal AB run. Again, just gut feeling numbers, I modelled it all in excel, but the NW parameters and other standard parameters mess with my numbers a bit, so we'll need to see it in action to do final tweaking probably.
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul Game profile

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Game Development
10,263

Jun 29th 2012, 15:09:19

synoder: losses are applied on a per-unit basis, and based on the defending unit for that attack; so if you have 0 turrets or 0 food for a GS, that won't affect the rest of the stuff; you'll just lose 0 food; if you have 0 troops, that WILL cause you to lose more food though (or pop)
Finally did the signature thing.

davidoss Game profile

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643

Jun 29th 2012, 16:11:01

Are you planning on posting the new formula?

Pang Game profile

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Game Development
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Jun 29th 2012, 16:18:47

it's highly unlikely we'll post any war-related formulas, as has been our policy thus far.

something else i thought of now to add to this change (as folks have complained about this creating a disincentive to be a breaker) is to make a portion of killed military/pop/whatever be turned into "slave labour" or something and positively impact your output for some number of turns. I haven't thought deeper than this msg though because I am highly busy with work :p

nice to finally get this in though, thx qz :)
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qzjul Game profile

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Game Development
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Jun 29th 2012, 17:07:19

There was a minor bug earlier which has since been fixed.
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul Game profile

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Game Development
10,263

Jun 29th 2012, 20:18:58

Just to be clear, this won't actually affect the send-again button; but it will allow walling to be more effective. We will probably have other methods of dealing with super-fast KR's sometime in the future.
Finally did the signature thing.

Pang Game profile

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Game Development
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Jun 29th 2012, 20:55:40

Originally posted by qzjul:
Just to be clear, this won't actually affect the send-again button; but it will allow walling to be more effective. We will probably have other methods of dealing with super-fast KR's sometime in the future.


tying it to my idea above, attacking quickly could make you take less from your opponent because you don't have time to loot the spoils
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crest23 Game profile

Member
4666

Jun 29th 2012, 20:58:38

A simple method to stop super fast KRs in to drop readiness SIGNIFICANTLY, say 5-10% drop each hit when hits are within 3,5, 10 seconds, pick a number. I think I recall you did something like that already, I don't know for sure.

If you get enough people to join in it would still be fast, otherwise I think this will slow it down.
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qzjul Game profile

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Game Development
10,263

Jun 29th 2012, 21:02:09

Yea crest that's one of our ideas still; it's semi-implemented on a beta server, we may put it out there again in the future, but it wouldn't be like how it was before.
Finally did the signature thing.

Anonymous

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384

Jun 29th 2012, 22:16:54

Readiness is already terrible enough, how about another less severe way.

Rockman Game profile

Member
3388

Jun 29th 2012, 23:19:45

So we make it even harder to kill untagged suiciders? How is this a useful change?

qzjul Game profile

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Game Development
10,263

Jun 29th 2012, 23:53:55

Did you read the part about the ramp up for AB/BR/GS's ?
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synoder Game profile

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1664

Jun 30th 2012, 0:47:29

I am not quite sure what that means, can you explain it for me?

Rip It Up Game profile

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Jun 30th 2012, 1:41:51

yeah what is this ramping up thing?
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afaik Game profile

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502

Jun 30th 2012, 2:17:00

I read this as: it takes a few turns first before the full population damage kicks in. You'll just destroy less pop-per-hit for the opening break, while you destroy the defending army and until the defender's mil is lowered / broken.

ridsect_sof Game profile

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141

Jun 30th 2012, 2:26:14

This is fake :P
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Aug 4, 06:22 Ridsect of SOF (#1576) SoF SoLe SuRViVoR (#1429) (SOLdier) 5 B / 8 C
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synoder Game profile

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Jun 30th 2012, 2:34:02

Originally posted by afaik:
I read this as: it takes a few turns first before the full population damage kicks in. You'll just destroy less pop-per-hit for the opening break, while you destroy the defending army and until the defender's mil is lowered / broken.


oh ok, that kinda makes sense as long as the military losses are the same as usual.

what about the 24hr part?

Angel1 Game profile

Member
837

Jun 30th 2012, 5:34:18

Rushes were a part of the game before the attack again button, and they'll be part of the game if the attack again button goes away.

I predict some unforseen consequences and other stuff such as netgaining alliances possibly being caught off guard and losing a war quickly, because they can't take advantage of this and their aggressive opponents that FSed them can.
-Angel1

Murf Game profile

Member
1224

Jun 30th 2012, 7:13:38

I have yet to see an attack again button lol just found the option in preferences but I'll stick to my current method