Just 300mil?

Donny: GS me some more so I lose food and my population doesn't get diabetes. GS will be easier on my costs rather than converting my healthcare program and will save me cash.


/end friendly Donny troll

I only bought about 40m food today, and I paid $54 for it :(

Prob SO's from a buncha countries..

of course 51 sold directly since prices has been at 54 for 2-3 days now...

and it just dropped to 51:(

Come on peeps, gobble that food. I want $55 by tomorrow

NBK was keeping it up, but to much is being dumped for cheap now :S

I can still keep it up, but it is at the point where I make no money off of it, so no point :P

My demos are grabbing anything up to $52, I'm keeping the faith..

Buy mine at $85, they are higher quality bushels.(after dinner mints included)

What type of mints? Andes mints? Those things are tasty. Especially the doubly minty ones that Olive Garden has.

ewww....

ill buy at 51 :)

300mil food is 15% of the cash I have available on one of my countries :P

Not doubting that, or rubbing it in, just saying don't be surprised 300mil cheap food gets snatched up fast.

You've got 100 billion cash on a country already?

Kinda odd to not allow self-farming, but allowing buyouts or FA chains to do whatever you've done to put 100B cash on one country this early.

Whats the rationale for that?

Pretty much outta 30% of all food sold on the market, I made 2-3% off of it :P Figure out the math from that, lol.

Also if I can do this without self farming, imagine what I can do with that allowed. This required constant market manipulation as well as anticipation, working together with a group of 3 other dedicated people.

As for your question Donny, you would likely get 7b cash using a non tyr with maxed mil strat, or 10b ish cash using a tyr. Hence why I am keeping most of it on the market in various forms so it is safe from landgrabs.

enough

You bastard, you've been making so much money off me. I use about 30 million bushels of food a day now just to run my turns on all 16 countries. And yeah, if you're making $2 per bushel on 30% of the bushels sold, thats kinda crazy. Why are you focusing all that cash in one country though, or do you have a few countries with over 1 billion bushels each stockpiled on them?

I was focusing the cash in one country because it was easier to buy and sell, a central location to manage is a lot easier then a bunch of different ones.

And Donny, no :P

I gotta say, I'm confused by NBK's stance on land-trading then, if market aiding is permitted.

You've done an awesome job on the food market here, I was considering doing that type of thing, but wasn't sure if 16 countries could have that much of an effect. Apparently if you get a few friends helping you control the market, you can really make a nice profit.

If only Paulie hadn't farmed & threatened me this set, I might have made my cashers democracies instead of dictators and would be getting screwed in my efforts to make money off the food market while you guys did your thing :P

It isnt market aiding. Everyone of the people who helped me made a profit. Sorta a mini monopoly. This is 100% legit, and even more difficult when you do not self farm.
I would not sacrifice the finish of another clanmate at the benefit of one of us doing better. All together or none at all.

Awesome. 'nuff said

what he said.

im a netting NOOB. i have only truly netted a few sets in Alliance before work forced me to stop that even.
and with the aid of clan mates, like K4F, i have been able to get a stock far better then any other set, and also help them advance their countries.
there is no cheating, just good team work. which in the end will surprise the server i think

So if all the countries involved make a profit, its not market aiding? Does that mean that if two of my countries exchange grabs and both gain land, that its not self farming?

Its teamwork with the goal of elevating one country above the rest. Which I thought was something your alliance was against.

I have a lot more respect for you guys now that I know you're willing to do market aiding, I just don't get why you're so afraid to admit what you're doing. Its like you think you'll lose your reputation as great warrers if you admit to using netting techniques.

I know it sounds sorta similar but I do not consider it market aiding, I think market aiding, personally, is more along the lines of sacrificing money to do a buyout to make one country stronger while having a net loss.

Market controlling however, makes all our countries stronger for a net gain. Most of it is deciding what to buy and sell stuff at.

You and I have different definitions of market aiding.

Back when I played in LaE ~5 years ago, I had some countries buyout food, and then sell back the food for basically the same price they bought it at, so that another country could sell his food for much more. I considered it to be market aiding, even though none of my countries bought the food that was being sold for $20 more than normal. Even though they didn't suffer, they did use their stockpile to help boost up another country.

How do you object to your own members land-trading like what I've been doing this set, then? Unlike your market maneuvers, where countries suffer no harm, but the benefits are concentrated on one country, my method has benefitted all my countries virtually equally.

I don't object to what you guys are doing, and despite my initial impression of your alliance, I'm beginning to really like you guys. I just find it curious that you allow the propping of one country up with the others helping out, so long as the helpers don't suffer, but you don't allow mutually beneficial land-trading.

My definition of market aiding is when one country is intentionally given more profit off market manipulations than other countries.

I also differentiate between self-farming (where one country benefits more than another) and self-landtrading (where no country is given preference). I know that very few, if anyone, sees a distinction between what I consider to be self-farming and self-landtrading, but thats the way I look at it.

I also see a difference between market manipulation and market aiding, in that aiding is when one country is intentionally boosted. This is an extremely similar difference to the difference between what I consider to be land-trading versus farming.

I've observed no difference in people's views of self-farming versus self-landtrading, but market aiding and market manipulation are talked about so little that there's not really any observed difference. People do differentiate between buyouts, where numerous countries buy goods that they know they will sell back for a loss, versus market aiding/manipulation, where one makes their profit off of other people. Its a fine line between market aiding and buyouts, and I think the key difference is who buys your goods. But then buying out food to $75, and having countries pay $70 for a bushel knowing they won't get more than $55 when selling it back would fall under the market aiding rather than a buyout.


To sum it up, I like what you're doing, but I find it confusing that you would object to self-landtrading while doing the manipulations that you're doing.

"My definition of market aiding is when one country is intentionally given more profit off market manipulations than other countries."

Then we aren't doing that either :P I am just concentrating on one country solely because there is a limit to how much food is bought and sold, and it is easier to just use a single one.

the problem with self farming is that it goes against the spirit of the game (at least IMO). except that's ok on just this server apparently.
but 2 countries working the public market effectively is kind of the purpose of the public market.
also, when u self farm, u put yourself into DR so u can have 0 military, infinite land with almost 0 negative repercussions. in contrast with playing the market, what other people do can/will have an effect on how much u benefit.

So if you don't have zero military and you don't put yourself in DR, you aren't self farming?

So what's your term for what I am doing this set? Would you call it self-landtrading?

The problem I have with self farming, is, lowers player interaction, and it is too easy. Any newb with a lot of time could easily make super countries, and all of that relies on tag protection, as they have no military to speak of.

If DR didn't exist, then I say, self farm away. And no longer an issue, but it does.

Since I would be all-explore if it wasn't for self-land trading, I don't see it as lowering player interaction. If anything it increases player interaction by making me fat enough that people want to grab me.

I don't hit myself into DR or keep no military to speak of or rely on tag protection. Does that mean that you don't have any problem with what I'm doing? Or is what I'm doing just too easy?

You say "if DR didn't exist then I say self farm away", so why not allow self farming in NBK as long as no one is hit into DR by special attacks?

If you dont DR, then I don't really have a problem with it. And allowing it in NBK does sound reasonable, we have considered it before. It is just too easy to exploit. It is being abused by a bunch of people as it is right now :P

Clearly, there are alternatives to self farming like all-explore. But few countries will be successful on all-explore alone and will certainly not compete with those countries that are self farming and are sending themselves into DR every 24 hours. Taking a stance against self-farming opens up the option to actually play the game with some sort of player interaction by grabbing eventually in your growth. Sure, some players may choose to keep exploring for 5 acres a turn, but that won't get you very far.

I continue to applaud alliances like NBK who take a strong stance against self-farming. I will further applaud any alliance that refuses to pact alliances that make the choice to do so.

Certainly I would agree that if you self-farmed but didn't DR yourself to kingdom come, you are the lesser evil - but I still don't like it. Personally I think an alliance that does both should be at the top of the landfarm list. I do not believe that DR was created for the purpose that it is being widely used for today.

All aspects of this issue have been discussed time and time again.

1,2,3,4 NBK Declares a farm war!

its not the self farming, its the DR.
DR makes it so u can have 250k, or 500k land, or 1m or w/e and have no defense. (or next to it)
now, clearly everyone could have 0 or very low military.The difference is, someone on 25k land and 2m turrets is weighing the benefits of 2m turrets vs the disadvantages of the possibility of being a LG target.
now someone with 250k land who puts himself into DR can have comparably low defense, but there is no weighing the benefits vs disadvantages.
cause there is no disadvantages to low/no turrets when u are in DR.

now back to the food/market thing.
its different, cause other people selling/buying on the same market i'm playing with will effect how much $ i make or don't make. plus the entire point of clans in FFA is to help your clan mates and such. so if u work together for mutual gain in the market. that says to me, that your playing well within the spirit of the game.
where as self farming, OR just DR yourself in general, makes things like turrets 100% pointless to even have scripted

When 25+ million turrets doesn't deter NBK from hitting you, you kinda have to make adjustments to deter hits. I personally would rather not lose 10k+ acres a day to you guys.

I agree with you guys on the DR issue. I'd like to see it changed so that special attacks no longer give DR. I think the problem of lemming someone down with BR before PSing them is minor compared to the problem of doing special attacks on a country to protect it from landgrabs.

I don't have a problem with using the market to boost one country over another on any alliance based server, but I do see it as less 'legit' than mutually beneficial landtrading.

25+ million turrets may sound like alot.

But if you only have 25m turrets on 200k land, its the same as having 2.5m turrets on 20k land.


There is a valid issue with the DR system. Those who use it together with Self Farming have no risks but get all the rewards. And they have no room to complain if they loose 10k acres in a grab. If you loose 10k out of your 250k, who cares. Its like looking 1k acres when you have 25k. It wont ruin your experience.

double post

25 mill turrets on 200k =/= 2.5 mill turrets on 20k land.

I'll use the latest hit on me as to why. I'm running #1502, an NBKer with 20 million jets and *significantly less than 1 million turrets* just grabbed me. To me that's not done to 'netgain' like they currently are, that is done out of malice to see big numbers. I can have as many turrets as humanly possible right now and there will be people running all jetters out to grab me for the lulz, hence the use of DR.

This is something I've seen done while a member of NBK, by members and leaders there. Regardless of how 'minimal' the losses, when you're that big you're going to be targeted often and speaking from experience it adds up. While I don't take it personally, I find it douchey and lame.

i find self farming to 300k acres with only 20m turrets then DR yourself is deuchey and lame.
i cant understand how the devs deem it within the spirit of the game other then the fact that they do it.

and no. you cant still be hit if u have "as humanly possible" on your 300k land. that statement is just retarded. you could easily have 100m turrets with the income u should have :P
if i can have 20k acres with 10m turrets and not be a LG target, then you should be able to get more then 20m on your 300k acres

Why don't I just spend my entire stock right now on turrets, that would be great for my income per turn.

Don't take me so literal, humanly possible is an obvious exaggeration. However I wouldn't be surprised that if I bought another 100 mill turrets, I'd still find myself on the receiving end of a few hits from you guys. Actually that depends, where does kemo play these days?

And hence our no defense whining :P

As for would we be hitting you, might be the odd attempt, but I dont see a way we could reasonably break you.
But when you make one country like that, you are putting all your eggs in one basket.

I stand by my statement DRing is cheap and not intended.

wow. do u really not get my point?

ill explain again in a simpler way.
you should defense relative to the income of our country. as in, if u make 200k food per turn, u should have defenses in relation to that.
so if u self farm, and make 2 mill per turns. u should have defenses in relation to that.

not just DR yourself. thats just bull fluff. whats the point of even having turrets scripted into the game, or troops, or anything for that matter.

/troll

This is going nowhere. But I am open to a discussion where DRing is banned, reguardless of the status of self farming.

After getting a few drinks in me I realized I wasn't being fair in my comments (insults).

I understand and to an extent agree with your issues with DR, however the impression I have gotten during my short time on this server (and in NBK) is that your alliance's 'topfeeds' are not done for the benefit but out of 'malice' (for the lulz). You can 'explain again in a simpler way' as much as you want but my point is no matter how many turrets I invest in, NBK will find a way to break me so fluff it.

I realize you are a warring clan and having been in a leadership role in one for around a decade on the alliance server and know that be protecting ones land can be a big part of starting a war. However my sole reason in coming to and playing on this server is to netgain and to use all 16 countries to my advantage. But my endgame goal isn't to place all 16 high, I want to finish the best I can with the one.

I'd be more than willing to not DR myself and carry extra defense if that meant it would deter hits, but I honestly do not believe that would keep your alliance from hitting me. So I will continue to use DR to my advantage as long as the game will allow me.

Little tipsy and feel like I'm not touching upon 1 or 2 key thoughts but this is enough for now. Essentially I feel like I am playing in a way this server should support while you guys condemn it. But like K4F said this is going nowhere, we can probably agree to disagree because ultimately we both play here for 2 entirely different reasons.

I have said this many times
Ill stop self farming and stop self DRing, when you guys stop using all 16 of your countries to kill.

Cause im here to net, you guys are here to war. Thats how i want to use my countries and thats how you want to use your countries.