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sfbob Game profile

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547

Mar 21st 2020, 10:08:11

Looks like I caught it off a colleague who returned from Spain on Monday coughing constantly until we sent him home. Its not really bothered me at all, just a shortness of breath and occasional cough. Girlfriend is worse but not too bad. If this is the same virus it appears it can manifest completely differently from individual to individual.

smikke Game profile

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EE Patron
243

Mar 21st 2020, 13:19:00

Originally posted by Makinso:
Originally posted by smikke:
Originally posted by Makinso:
Originally posted by smikke:
Originally posted by Makinso:
Christ you americans have a stupid system.

Goverment support for anyone negatively impacted by Corona financially here has already been organized.
It won't be full coverage but they are pumping billions into civilian financial support. it is on a need to basis. So not everyone gets compensated you need to show that you will fall under minimal standards for income or get hit financially in a really hard and proveable way (don't know the exact calculations).

They organized it all in a 48 - 72 hours timeframe.


ahaha using the Netherlands as an example to laugh at America

here is how expats perceive the Dutch response: https://www.econjobrumors.com/...h-response-to-coronavirus


LOL,

I read it fully, but it is written colorfully. The lines people are talking about? For sex shops / coffee shops etc? Was only about coffee shops selling weed. And people buying their legal amount before closing shops down. It was never about restaurants etc. Far as I can see all gyms, restaurants etc in my area are closed.

It also fails to tell the goverment following WHO and RIVM guidelines on group immunity and how these shut downs were set to be evaluated in 3 weeks. Evaluation criteria are based on group immunity. also WHO presses the fact that full lockdowns won't give group immunity.

Yes the dutch are lightminded by nature and yes we usually tend to take light measures at first. But we know how to upgrade those quickly if need be. That same type attitude in governing and child education makes dutch people / childeren among the happiest in the world.

I understand the perception of an expat...... but it only tells half a story.


Do you actually know how to scale up to serious measures though? The Dutch are #5 in Europe in deaths and are about to pass South Korea (the first big crisis outside of China) in deaths in less than a week. It shows that either the Dutch are unable to judge the situation correctly (given that the measures were until Monday looser than in countries with fewer than 5 deaths) or then that the Dutch are making a very economic calculation about an acceptable number of deaths that other countries refuse to make.


Your numbers are off, we're number 8 - 10 switching up and down. But recent statistic measures of COVID-19 spread have shown 3 things correlate with these death numbers. Total of residents in a country but also population density and average age. Netherlands is a very population dense country. So us being high up in numbers isn't strange. Another discussed variable is ethnic background vs biology. It is hypothesized at this very moment that the southern europeans but also arabs in the netherlands (our younger people getting COVID and heavy health problems seems to be pre-dominantly of non-dutch background) carry more of the ACE2 proteïn which is one of the proteïns COVID-19 jumpstarts and spreads on.


As for knowing how to escalates measures. We are prepared, Netherlands has all protocols in place to switch scenarios in a matter of hours. Every (semi) government institution has a 3 - 4 scenario playbook ready to switch immediately. For instance the institution I work in is in scenario 2 atm. Meaning all childeren are prohibited to go on leave to their parents or leave the facility without guidance. Leaving the facility is only in a need to situation. All neccesary employees falling into the health risk category or having relatives in that category are on forced paid leave, other employees will put in more time to compensate.

Scenario 3 has been setup. We have rented half a hotel which is 100 meters away from us and fully vacant due to dutch government measures. We will quarantaine any childeren that are hit with COVID-19 there. In collaboration with hospitals and the local health department a new set of caretakers with medical protection etc. will be installed in case of quarantine.

Scenario 4 is total lockdown. Which means only a select group of volunteering employees will keep the facility running at 150% pay. These volunteers are mostly non-young parent / health risk employees. And will likely not leave the facility during lockdown AKA live here temporarily. If it''s a long lockdown it will be in 2 groups shifts of 7 days on 7 off. In the 7 days off the employees being off will live in the quarantine hotel we rented.


Working closely with police i dare to say they have the same preparation. Special teams with the army have been formed to lockdown the Netherlands completely if need be. Those measures can be in place within 1-2 hours of the command to lock the Netherlands down. Our biggest risk (small country densily popuplated) is also our protection in this case.


So yes we are prepared.


How are the numbers off? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Netherlands is 8 IN THE WORLD in total deaths. Every country ahead of the Netherlands has a population of at least 60 million (Netherlands = 17.5). In terms of deaths/population, Netherlands ranks either 3 or 4 in the WORLD. This is despite the fact that the Netherlands has a younger population (you want to talk about risk groups, the biggest factor is not race but age) than almost all Western European countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing_of_Europe). Dense population? The country has more deaths than South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong PUT TOGETHER. 75% of deaths in the Netherlands are ALREADY outside intensive care units (i.e. they were denied intensive care), suggesting that the country puts saving money way ahead of saving lives (https://www.nu.nl/...rland-lag-niet-op-ic.html). And what does the WHO say? It says we need more testing. What do the Dutch say? Testing is too expensive and pointless, let's just let the crisis roll in.

It's just incredible that you can somehow look at the situation and think "yeah, we're doing a great job here. Look at how fluffed the US is" (despite the US having 9 times fewer deaths from the disease as a proportion of the population than the NL and despite the fact that the US has rolled out mass testing whereas the NL sits on their asses because testing is too expensive).


Here are some fun articles about the Dutch response, including telling people it will not spread if you don't have symptoms and taking the strategy the UK abandoned
https://www.irishtimes.com/...onavirus-spread-1.4199027
https://www.irishtimes.com/...munity-strategy-1.4204578

This country is literally one of the worst responders to the coronavirus epidemic in the world. This is what makes it so strange to see Dutch people going on about how OTHER countries have messed this up, but then again, this seems like typical Dutch arrogance. Honestly I am so glad my elderly parents are in a country where the attitude when they get sick is not "you're going to die anyway so we won't treat you" (see the article about 75% of patients dying outside of intensive care) and the public isn't so convinced that "oh yeah we're not Southern European it won't happen to us."

Also, in terms of measures. I work for a "semi-government" institution here and the response has been stupid and reactive - everything in the universities thread applies my university. When they finally told us to work from home, it turns out all of these committees for distance learning and coronavirus had not prepared at all so we got a week worth of spam with contradicting instructions on how we are actually meant to teach, with the final conclusion being "figure it out on your own." US universities on the other hand immediately told staff how to switch and they were able to switch immediately.

Makinso Game profile

Member
2908

Mar 21st 2020, 16:05:29

Originally posted by smikke:
Originally posted by Makinso:
Originally posted by smikke:
Originally posted by Makinso:
Originally posted by smikke:
Originally posted by Makinso:
Christ you americans have a stupid system.

Goverment support for anyone negatively impacted by Corona financially here has already been organized.
It won't be full coverage but they are pumping billions into civilian financial support. it is on a need to basis. So not everyone gets compensated you need to show that you will fall under minimal standards for income or get hit financially in a really hard and proveable way (don't know the exact calculations).

They organized it all in a 48 - 72 hours timeframe.


ahaha using the Netherlands as an example to laugh at America

here is how expats perceive the Dutch response: https://www.econjobrumors.com/...h-response-to-coronavirus


LOL,

I read it fully, but it is written colorfully. The lines people are talking about? For sex shops / coffee shops etc? Was only about coffee shops selling weed. And people buying their legal amount before closing shops down. It was never about restaurants etc. Far as I can see all gyms, restaurants etc in my area are closed.

It also fails to tell the goverment following WHO and RIVM guidelines on group immunity and how these shut downs were set to be evaluated in 3 weeks. Evaluation criteria are based on group immunity. also WHO presses the fact that full lockdowns won't give group immunity.

Yes the dutch are lightminded by nature and yes we usually tend to take light measures at first. But we know how to upgrade those quickly if need be. That same type attitude in governing and child education makes dutch people / childeren among the happiest in the world.

I understand the perception of an expat...... but it only tells half a story.


Do you actually know how to scale up to serious measures though? The Dutch are #5 in Europe in deaths and are about to pass South Korea (the first big crisis outside of China) in deaths in less than a week. It shows that either the Dutch are unable to judge the situation correctly (given that the measures were until Monday looser than in countries with fewer than 5 deaths) or then that the Dutch are making a very economic calculation about an acceptable number of deaths that other countries refuse to make.


Your numbers are off, we're number 8 - 10 switching up and down. But recent statistic measures of COVID-19 spread have shown 3 things correlate with these death numbers. Total of residents in a country but also population density and average age. Netherlands is a very population dense country. So us being high up in numbers isn't strange. Another discussed variable is ethnic background vs biology. It is hypothesized at this very moment that the southern europeans but also arabs in the netherlands (our younger people getting COVID and heavy health problems seems to be pre-dominantly of non-dutch background) carry more of the ACE2 proteïn which is one of the proteïns COVID-19 jumpstarts and spreads on.


As for knowing how to escalates measures. We are prepared, Netherlands has all protocols in place to switch scenarios in a matter of hours. Every (semi) government institution has a 3 - 4 scenario playbook ready to switch immediately. For instance the institution I work in is in scenario 2 atm. Meaning all childeren are prohibited to go on leave to their parents or leave the facility without guidance. Leaving the facility is only in a need to situation. All neccesary employees falling into the health risk category or having relatives in that category are on forced paid leave, other employees will put in more time to compensate.

Scenario 3 has been setup. We have rented half a hotel which is 100 meters away from us and fully vacant due to dutch government measures. We will quarantaine any childeren that are hit with COVID-19 there. In collaboration with hospitals and the local health department a new set of caretakers with medical protection etc. will be installed in case of quarantine.

Scenario 4 is total lockdown. Which means only a select group of volunteering employees will keep the facility running at 150% pay. These volunteers are mostly non-young parent / health risk employees. And will likely not leave the facility during lockdown AKA live here temporarily. If it''s a long lockdown it will be in 2 groups shifts of 7 days on 7 off. In the 7 days off the employees being off will live in the quarantine hotel we rented.


Working closely with police i dare to say they have the same preparation. Special teams with the army have been formed to lockdown the Netherlands completely if need be. Those measures can be in place within 1-2 hours of the command to lock the Netherlands down. Our biggest risk (small country densily popuplated) is also our protection in this case.


So yes we are prepared.


How are the numbers off? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Netherlands is 8 IN THE WORLD in total deaths. Every country ahead of the Netherlands has a population of at least 60 million (Netherlands = 17.5). In terms of deaths/population, Netherlands ranks either 3 or 4 in the WORLD. This is despite the fact that the Netherlands has a younger population (you want to talk about risk groups, the biggest factor is not race but age) than almost all Western European countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing_of_Europe). Dense population? The country has more deaths than South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong PUT TOGETHER. 75% of deaths in the Netherlands are ALREADY outside intensive care units (i.e. they were denied intensive care), suggesting that the country puts saving money way ahead of saving lives (https://www.nu.nl/...rland-lag-niet-op-ic.html). And what does the WHO say? It says we need more testing. What do the Dutch say? Testing is too expensive and pointless, let's just let the crisis roll in.

It's just incredible that you can somehow look at the situation and think "yeah, we're doing a great job here. Look at how fluffed the US is" (despite the US having 9 times fewer deaths from the disease as a proportion of the population than the NL and despite the fact that the US has rolled out mass testing whereas the NL sits on their asses because testing is too expensive).


Here are some fun articles about the Dutch response, including telling people it will not spread if you don't have symptoms and taking the strategy the UK abandoned
https://www.irishtimes.com/...onavirus-spread-1.4199027
https://www.irishtimes.com/...munity-strategy-1.4204578

This country is literally one of the worst responders to the coronavirus epidemic in the world. This is what makes it so strange to see Dutch people going on about how OTHER countries have messed this up, but then again, this seems like typical Dutch arrogance. Honestly I am so glad my elderly parents are in a country where the attitude when they get sick is not "you're going to die anyway so we won't treat you" (see the article about 75% of patients dying outside of intensive care) and the public isn't so convinced that "oh yeah we're not Southern European it won't happen to us."

Also, in terms of measures. I work for a "semi-government" institution here and the response has been stupid and reactive - everything in the universities thread applies my university. When they finally told us to work from home, it turns out all of these committees for distance learning and coronavirus had not prepared at all so we got a week worth of spam with contradicting instructions on how we are actually meant to teach, with the final conclusion being "figure it out on your own." US universities on the other hand immediately told staff how to switch and they were able to switch immediately.




What uni? As honestly I attend to Erasmus for a second masters degree and everything is spot on and well organized. That might be more of a local uni problem then a country problem. And if you think the country you work in is so fluff :P just leave?

smikke Game profile

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Mar 21st 2020, 17:48:49

I'm a professor at Erasmus. The university is run way worse than any institution I was at before. The bureaucracy is 10 times higher but the output of the bureaucracy is lower.

smikke Game profile

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EE Patron
243

Mar 21st 2020, 17:53:40

And yes, after seeing the NL up close I am probably going to move in the next 2 years. The country has a good reputation internationally but once you move here (having experienced Nordic countries and SE Asian countries) you really realize how badly things are run and the only reason they seem "efficient" is because they seem to have no regard for anything other than saving money (see for instance with coronavirus old people being left just to die)

smikke Game profile

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EE Patron
243

Mar 22nd 2020, 11:47:01

Update: based on current forecasts, the mighty Netherlands (much smarter than the US) is scheduled to run out of intensive care spaces this coming Thursday or Sunday, depending on whether they can extend the spaces to 1500 or 2000.

Makinso Game profile

Member
2908

Mar 24th 2020, 8:58:56

Originally posted by smikke:
I'm a professor at Erasmus. The university is run way worse than any institution I was at before. The bureaucracy is 10 times higher but the output of the bureaucracy is lower.



Wow......

I'm in ESSB department atm. It feels well organized on the student side that is. What department are you in? Could be a department problem then? Ofcourse I don't know what happens on an employee level but taken from a students point of view it's pretty well organized. WIthin hours we had notifications and options to continue our courses online / with assignments and self study.

As of the mentioned IC spots. It was also announced that army hospitals will be given a civilian task. We're talking quite a massive amount of beds in that case.

As for the death amounts, I just read a paper on the death counts.Trying to make sense of the death numbers:: Conclusion? Impossible at this point, variables like testing policy (Italy tests patients even after death for instance), model of spread and infection, average age, cause of death registration, etc. etc. etc. all impact the numbers to severly still.

There is no way to properly measure and compare countries based on amounts of sick people or deaths by COVID-19. I think that is the only factual point to make atm, So it's to early to tell to do well. Other then the world is stuck with this virus for a while let's just deal with it.

As for where this discussion started, the Netherlands has drafted a fluff ton of money, to support anyone getting into financial problems. That's what i was trying to say earlier. And we made that happen in a matter of hours.


To bad I can't get to campus or I would say Beer? ;)

smikke Game profile

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EE Patron
243

Mar 30th 2020, 12:05:50

Originally posted by Makinso:
Originally posted by smikke:
I'm a professor at Erasmus. The university is run way worse than any institution I was at before. The bureaucracy is 10 times higher but the output of the bureaucracy is lower.



Wow......

I'm in ESSB department atm. It feels well organized on the student side that is. What department are you in? Could be a department problem then? Ofcourse I don't know what happens on an employee level but taken from a students point of view it's pretty well organized. WIthin hours we had notifications and options to continue our courses online / with assignments and self study.

As of the mentioned IC spots. It was also announced that army hospitals will be given a civilian task. We're talking quite a massive amount of beds in that case.

As for the death amounts, I just read a paper on the death counts.Trying to make sense of the death numbers:: Conclusion? Impossible at this point, variables like testing policy (Italy tests patients even after death for instance), model of spread and infection, average age, cause of death registration, etc. etc. etc. all impact the numbers to severly still.

There is no way to properly measure and compare countries based on amounts of sick people or deaths by COVID-19. I think that is the only factual point to make atm, So it's to early to tell to do well. Other then the world is stuck with this virus for a while let's just deal with it.

As for where this discussion started, the Netherlands has drafted a fluff ton of money, to support anyone getting into financial problems. That's what i was trying to say earlier. And we made that happen in a matter of hours.


To bad I can't get to campus or I would say Beer? ;)


I'm at RSM. Student side the communication was ok because there was no communication. If they were spamming them like they were spamming us they'd have been shocked. UvA sent an email one day to students before the order to close universities saying that coronavirus is no reason to miss classes lol.

Right now the situation seems to be that the ICUs are pretty much full with only a few spots. People being sent to Germany for care. Old people being denied care. Doesn't look good at all. RIVM finally revised their estimates and now they think this will happen as well.

Let's get a beer after this is over lol.

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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EE Patron
29,485

Mar 30th 2020, 13:37:27

Originally posted by sfbob:
Looks like I caught it off a colleague who returned from Spain on Monday coughing constantly until we sent him home. Its not really bothered me at all, just a shortness of breath and occasional cough. Girlfriend is worse but not too bad. If this is the same virus it appears it can manifest completely differently from individual to individual.


Any update on this, did you confirm you have it or is it the flu?
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Kaleanae Game profile

Member
359

Mar 30th 2020, 16:15:29

I never stopped working =(

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

Member
EE Patron
29,485

Mar 30th 2020, 17:17:24

Me either bro, I actually doubled my workload lol
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

w1a9c8k5 Game profile

Member
158

Mar 31st 2020, 1:23:48

nope