when someone bothers to do the math, please let me in on the secret too =P

i was hoping ud do the math. lol.

ill do a little bit more math.

lets say you average +100M/pci boom;. each day you get 1.3333 pci booms. so thats 133M/cash.

lets say you also get to your land goal (50K) in the first month, which would be outstanding...

that leaves 30 days to stock. with the pci boom
= around 4B cash = approx 16M nw. since 2B cash is worth roughly 8m nw.

so the pci booms will get you 16m more nw.

however, by doing so, you will be buying food for 70 and selling it for 35 (assuming u wait till near the end).

you get approx 50 turns a day.

a casher at 50k cashes about 20M after food expenses at the start, and probably 10M after food expenses near the end after he was jumping. i know before i did my final jump, i was sitting at around 85M nw and cashing approx 15M/turn - 140k food @35/bushel, so around 10m/turn. lets split the difference and say you will avg 15m/turn (after food expenses) per turn. (excluding those PCI boom turns).

so at 50 turns a day, you will make 750M/day (15m x 50turns). x 30 days = 22.5B. which would be a helluva stockpile. + the 4B from the PCI turns. thats approx 26B in stockpile. which would be roughly 104M nw.

that would be only if you could load food for what you bought it for. which we all know is untrue. lets say you stocked ALL food with those 22.5B (approx 90M nw). sold all of it for half what you bought it. you just lost 45M nw in stock.

so essentially, im trading say the 4B from PCI booms for 30 pct expenses decrease.

a reduction in expenses would allow you to cash about 30 pct more per turn...

so at 15M/turn after expenses, that would bump you to 20M/turn. so an extra 5M/turn x around 50 turns a day x 30 days= approx 1500 turns.

so. according to these calcs, you trade 4B to get 7.5B (the biproduct of an extra 5m/turn for 1500 turns). that is a gain of 3.5B in stockpile. subtracting of course, military expenses gained from spending $ on military instead of food.

so for this to NOT be worthwile, you would have to lose 3.5B or more in expenses over those 1500 turns, or approx 2.3333M/turn to make this not worthwhile. i still feel like its making it worthwhile.

this is based on a few assumptions.

1 you reach 50k land in 30 days (very hard, and i was on a pretty close pace if i had subtracted those 2 topfeeds).
2. food prices follow what this reset did. which i doubt. 70 during stockpiling high, even for this server.
3. military prices stay around the 130-140 range like they did this server.

these are just very rough calcs. but interesting enough to make me attempt this if i run casher this upcoming reset.

Interesting :p

Just do us a favor, try to reach you're 50K land without tech leeching.

Congrats oldman!

Congrats oldman!

jj that's good work but don't forget that expense bonus will give you a much higher base to jump from. I believe that a casher with expense bonus don't even have to start jumping or stockpiling until at least 70mil net. You can look at my country and estimate. Buying those extra 20m+ units at the end still leaves me with very manageable expenses. My military tech is also nowhere near maxed. I have no expense bonus either.

I would imagine a fat republic. 70-75k acres making 42+mil can definitely get to 70mil net no problem with expense bonus. And with 10 days of stocking, it should get you well above 100 mil.
It would work better with reps but i just don't like reps all that much or commies. I might just play dict again or tyranny this coming round. Maybe even monarch

its not illegal retard, and much mess immoral than you topfeeding me when u had no chance of winning or finishing well to deter me from winning. do that sh1t again and you will never netgain in primary again. be stuck on those 2 wins forever. mark my words.

70k land is too much. even at 50k land, after i retalled B2B, to rebuild those buildings was costing me more than i was making per turn. when you factored in building costs at 70 bpt + food i was losing per turn, that was about 5M more than what i was making.

plus, at 70k as a rep, you will get some idiot like ixneo, zuegeliang, or jedidola to topfeed you. and at that point youd just have to do the rockman.

50k is a viable land goal. id almost settle for 40k if i can get there early enough, say, 25 days. then i could stock cheap food + get the cheap military.

like i said there are a couple things i did not factor, as i did not wanna think, but thats just basic math that intrigues me enough to attempt this on my next primary casher.

lol ixneo topfed me too. if he's gonna do that i wish he would've made better use of my land and finished higher

it cost you more than what you made per turns because your expense was so high. But i was hurting pretty bad, those last 25k acres cost me billions to build lmao. I think if i did the same except go for expense or building cost would've had me a lot higher in net and probably same amount of land.

To balance things out maybe a demo casher would be good for high nw. I have a plan on getting an extra $1 billion or more on the last 4-6 hours of the game.

What jj23 didn't factor is that you must play the game in respect with the rules.
I didn't mention yet that I was spied by Moonstone after my grab exactly at the same time (like 1 minute before) that JJ23 sent me an ingame message. Coincidence ?

When you play a REP without having to buy tech, there is no merit at all. Without that , It is not possible with a REP to reach and stay top of scores list so early in reset as he did.

All you little girls quit crying.

me? crying? i'm discussing strategy.

lol @ IXneo .. you idiot :p

stop avoiding the thread i made for you jed. until you answer why you had to ruin my finish, you will get no respect from me, meaning i will not allow you to netgain in this server. ever again. you need my respect to continue to netgain. even if your answer is "because youre JJ and i dont like you so thats why i did." i want an answer. period.

Yes and next reset I will give you my country name so can ruin my reset ... lol

The reason : I spyed you, you had 2 research allies that were not your def of off allies, so because because they don't get any advantage from the alliance, I consider it is cheeting.

I will add you very low SPAL, making me think you used other coutries spying for you... and I had the proof after when moonstone spied on me at the same time than your ingame message.

Is this true JJ? This puts your 100 mill NW membership in serious doubt.

But crest, that also means you imply Veni Vedi da Vincci's 111m finish is also "non legit" given that he had O allies leech all set long too.

Not really, I don't know the circumstance behind Veni if he was really leeching OAs. From what those that know are saying, yes it would seem that even if it was legit, skillwise the owner does not rank with the rest of the 'legit' CIs up in the ranks.

I also don't know if Veni had tech leeches and a spy country or land farms for that matter. The fact that Veni failed to get expense bonus shows he wasn't very skilled and probably need the offense leeches.

lol i was his intel ally with 2.3mil spies at the time. I'm not sure who his other intel is but a couple of allies like me should not be a problem to get him a spy op through.

Tdoung can I be your spy ally? Didn't know you are generous enough to keep an ally that doesn't contribute much to your SPAL. :)

Tech leech, intel leech, offense leech. Wow! It's good to have friends.

when i ally someone, unless they screw up really bad, i don't usually ditch them. If i have like 30mil turret strength and you have only 6mil then something's gotta give. But besides that, I mostly depend on myself. I even ran with only 1 def/int ally for a while because cannabiscowboy decided to quit playing and i lost so much turrets from him getting hits. But i farmed him afterwards so I was happy.

damn..i wonder when i'll ever get up there, but it'll be a good dream come true....i wonder what happened to Wasteville on the way up?? haha

jed so you made assumptions which led to u attacking me. douchebag. like i said, you cost me a shot at a top 3 and maybe a win because you had no tangible proof of anything, but concocted in your head that i was somehow cheating so you had to ruin my reset.


i dont know who moonstone was. he gave me a tech ally, i later gave him an offense alliance after i was done lging already (so his offense contribution to me was nil). and yes he did attack. check the news fcking morons. i did not have anyone spy for me. but i had td as my ally.. and another ally with over 1M spies. my spal was 10. sure i failed a ton of ops, but why do you think i 10x tapped oceana and cannabais cowboy? that way i wouldn have to respy more targets. when you break thru, you gotta take advantage.

you call it an intel leech. are you stupid? for most of the reset i had 2x the turrets of tduong. does that mean im giving him a defense leech now? since when were allies expected to have the same friggin military setup/amount? I allied with him around day 3 including a tech start research triange which included herbs and blid somewhere in there. i pick compitent players to ally with so i dont have to worry about them quitting, or lagging way far behind. i dont drop my allies unless its a one off situation that requires it.

and crest, i dont apprecate you telling me i had an offense leech. i have already told you before my offense allies did a lot of attacking. you trying to insinuate that my 100M finish is short of legit is a no no. we have had numerous PM discussions about this.

if anything, my finish is more legit than any other 100M finish because of the crap i have to deal with on a set in and set out basis.

Well having a tech leech, or unequal ally, or farming noobs that don't fight back aren't against the rules.

Want to know what else isn't against the rules?

Finding people who do those above mentioned things and top feeding them. bothering them with bomb banks, stealing tech, and hitting them more than once.

In fact I'm going to do just that in Express for a while. I'll be "policing" the server personally.

So when you claim you did nothing wrong, you also have to admit jedioda did nothing wrong.

Good point

I've always tossed around the idea to the admins to remove all allies on solo server games. If you are indeed intended to play this game, primary, solo you shouldn't ally with anyone. You already can't FA anyone.

But with that said JJ being a leech isn't against any kind of rules. You're allowed to be a leech, most of the time though the leech gives something in return i.e. an offensive alliance. Also farming 'noobs' that don't fight back is a risky business. Each person he farms like that has the chance to AB, missile, etc... It's simple risk vs. reward. If you're jealous of that and decide to attack him because of that, that's fine, just be honest as to why you did it. You didn't do it because you think he did some grave injustice to the noobs, you did it because you were envious that he had a leg up on you because you didn't do it yourself.

Leeching SHOULD be against the rules. It's completely unfair and if everyone tried to do it, having good tech leeches would be far more important than who plays the best set. Me having to put 50% of my money everyday into tech while someone else gets it for free, while someone else is actually making money selling their leeched tech - how can anyone compete with that? Ridiculous. People who want their scores taken seriously shouldn't leech.

As far as farming people, that only became an issue after he hit Oceana 9 times over 6 days without getting retaled, but then Oceana retaled others who multitapped him after that heavily. It was strange.

yes, i agree with blid but a tech leech in exchange for "great intel/def" is definitely equally mutual. I had one tech leech that didn't really net me much tech and i never resold the tech. I think even til the end i was only getting 15k a day. However in exchange, I doubled his spy count lol.

Blid-- It's not that I disagree with you. A person leeching does give an advantage to them however like I said it is, most of the time, not a completely free exchange. Sometimes it is. But that is a slippery slope. Would you call someone who is allied with good defensive allies that perfectly double their defense power while they do not provide the same benefit to their ally? Is that a defensive leech? Where do you draw the line? Or is it only tech allies that you see as cheating? That is one reason I've lobbied for no allies in solo games. This isn't supposed to be a team game in primary and to keep the spirit of the server I don't think we should be able to ally anyone for anything.

The only way to prevent leeching would be to eliminate alliances in solo games completely.

That is a bit strange about Oceana 9. I can think of two possibilities:
1. It's a buddy of his giving him a favor
or
2. He manipulated him via messages.
or
3. The guy he hit didn't think he could cause any damage to JJ but he could the others.

I would avoid speculation however it only makes you look like you're jealous of another person achievement.

I'm not really worried about people having good defensive allies. If you're small enough that your defense is getting doubled you're probably not a relevant player in the final standings (and I can probably attack you anyway).

I really think they need to immediately eliminate tech alliances though. What tduong describes might be more or less a balanced exchange but there is just way too much room for abuse.

Yeah, one negative side effect would be that it weakens the Techer strategy. As a techer turns teching are key so tech allies help offset the turns you have to spend getting land and building. Other strats such as indy, casher, farmer, etc do not have that problem as they produce the goods they sell every turn regardless of what they are doing.

If you take away the tech alliance you hurt that strategy, cut supply, and the price of tech will go up a bit.

For me if you're going to cut tech allies because of that reasoning you need to cut all other allies too.

It might lower overall networths, but less tech means higher tech prices means techers are fine (and they do fine in Tournament without tech allies). The alternative which I've also suggested, but which would be more work, would be to make tech be given to allies based on their research lab percentage.

That could work to prevent leechs for sure. That's actually a good idea.

But the question still remains: what is the reason to have alliances in solo servers?

Promotes interaction between players, adds extra dynamics in attacking (especially def allies), tradition.

So you want more teamwork in solo servers?

Tradition isn't a good reason...may as well suggest multis and bots shpuld be allowed "for tradition".

I'm just trying to understand the logic of tech allies are bad but every other ally is good. I'm not saying he is right or wrong.

I'm not talking about "teamwork," I'm saying some minimal social interaction within the game is good for getting and keeping players involved. As stated, I also like the extra dynamics it adds to attacking - it makes it harder and increases the importance of spies. And finally, it helps counter the 50% PS bonus. Without def allies there would be even more incentive to farm newbs because a decent player could more easily retal. An important part of the tradition argument is also that I do not think there is a good reason they should be eliminated (unlike bots and multis).

Tech allies are bad only because of the possibility of leeching, otherwise they'd be fine. Leeching is a significant advantage that gives you basically free foreign aid. With defensive allies, you're also giving your own forces if your ally gets attacked, and even if they don't, you're passively, just by being allied to them, preventing them from being targeted by potential attackers. And finally, if you're a contender to win, you're not going to be getting attacked much at all anyway, so defensive allies don't play a serious role in the outcome of the round.

If you break out of a rigid black and white mindset of every alliance being the same I think this is a pretty clear argument.

Should the below "skill" really be part of the game? Tech alliances as they work actual incentivize such sleazy behavior:

No you make some good points blid.

1. Removing tech alliances will be good at best or unchanged at worst. Reducing supplyt. It would probably hurt maybe a little during growth phase.
2. Farming noobs is NOT risky. JJ proves that every set he plays.
3. DAs can be removed, but I would suggest giving defending forces +50% extra strength and increasing the Mehul/Pang factor to 25%-50% as well. That way you will still need some skill to attack.

If tech alliances are removed, I predict you will see a considerable drop in JJs rankings. This last Primary set, he was selling $50k-$100k NW worth of tech everyday. At the prices we had, that's a lot of extra cash he was making. And he most probably dumped the tech to prices set to sell which screws techers by depressing prices.

Removing tech alliances will reduce amount of tech and increase tech prices.
It will indirectly increase # of techers.
That will also slow down commies and cashers and probably raise the average price of food by at least 10%.
Fascist will probably be more popular for their bonus.
Military price will surely increase that makes mbr actually playable.

In the end, CI will still probably be OP because higher mil prices means higher income to compensate for higher tech prices. CI probably needs the least tech out of everyone because of their bonus.

crest, i don't want to doubt your assumptions but how does 25-50k points of tech a day depress prices in a game this big? Maybe in tourney i can see the effects of it but not in primary.

However 25-50k points of tech is still a considerable amount of cash.

What strat seemed to work the previous set plays a much bigger role in people deciding what strat to play next, so no, it will not mean an increase in techers. The dynamics of strats changes set after set. You can look up eestats to confirm that. I reckon that time to play plays a bigger role even than tech alliances.

If JJ was actually selling 50,000 tech point per day at lets assume 1,800 that's 90 million bucks per day. 90 million per day at lets say 25 days is 2.25 billion extra off tech allies.

If what you said was true.