I just placed some bets at 5:1 odds that EWPP will work (odds dropping every day that peace goes by)
However worse are the odds at 22:1 that EWPP will do any good o.O

That is much too high, I want to see those odds go down before I place any bets on it doing any good. 7:1 or 6:1 would be nice.

I played here for couple sets several years ago, and one of the reasons I did not stick around was due to the animosity on this server and here in AT, what with all the really old long term grudges and what not that I did not even try to understand. So I come back couple sets ago and things at first looked slightly different. Some clans gone, some other new ones around. Some major big clans now small and some smaller clans now being major one. Different alliances joined together and etc. However there is still all this animosity and hate lingering around. Whether it is new hate or old grudges hate, do not really care, it is still there.

The EWPP is a great step in the right direction, but why stop there? Can we keep the momentum going and try to see if we cant establish something really great and even better. Lets take last set for example.

Huge server war and from what I heard one that the losing side deserved for w/e I dont really care reasons. The point is that this winning side should have felt elated to stomp down the losing side. Instead mostly what I have heard is how boring the war was, this is the exact opposite of what I would have expected for them beating down the so called the enemy. The results speak for themselves as a lot of clans last set seen 10 - 15 member drops from BOTH sides. This was during the war. Now I did hear some members from the winning side not wanting to be involved in war at all, which might partly explain drop from winning side. But I dont think it explains all of them, No I think what I said earlier about the war being boring had more a part in this. I understand the results from the losing side, but from the winning side as well too? A lot of those countries did not come back this set either.

SO I think EWPP is a great start, but after such a huge long drawn out BORING lopsided war, I really think we need to continue the momentum and maybe see about giving the server a break from any major wars for at least one set and hopefully two. Can the leaders of these clans accomplish a pact for the greater good of the entire server and the game itself? Wipe the slate clean, it is supposed to be a new reset every set after all, so can we bury all the animosity and hate and move on to a new chapter? I do not know, but I do think a couple sets of pre-arranged peace will go a long way in accomplishing this. Give everyone a breather and more importantly lower those odds of the EWPP actually accomplishing some good so I can place some bets on that as well ;)

tl;dr - EWPP was imho a positive step but not enough for the server and the game with amount of player numbers declining. So can we move to the next step in interest of the server by clan leaders agreeing to a 1 or 2 set CF and peaceful set. Try to get rid of all the past animosity for one full set.

DON'T DO IT HAWSTER.

CANCEL THAT BET.

ASAP.

Take a gander at this.

SS Oct 21, 13:30 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Sally (#304) (OMA) DH
SS Oct 21, 13:31 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Sally (#304) (OMA) DH
SS Oct 21, 13:32 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) factory burn (#322) (OMA) 264 A
SS Oct 21, 13:33 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) factory burn (#322) (OMA) DH
PS Oct 21, 13:43 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) factory burn (#322) (OMA) 384 A

Clear cut EaOW (--5+ landgrabs by any country on a single tag within 48 hours*); signatories to the pact notified; no fair offer made to achieve an independant resolution, no action of any kind taken.

Well AusPiggy of Paradign (who tells me he is having surgery by the way, so good luck to him) has taken the trouble to speak to EVO or shortly will do so. The other pact signatories are not sufficiently interested even to reply to the message notifying them of the breach.

So it seems members of signatory pact alliances can breach the agreement with impugnity as long as they pick the right times, places, countries and tags to do it with.

Some might say the Pact is working, because, after all, we don't have a major war yet. But your booky won't say that. He will say it is not working and pocket your stake. :(

CANCEL THAT BET!!!

Furious:
I think there's something to be said here about wanting to have your cake and eat it too. I mean, you were at first opposed to the whole idea of the pact, but now you want to be protected by it. You criticize how the signatories play, but you want them to help protect your tag.

Part of the reason I run my mouth on AT so much these days is because I lead nothing and represent only myself; nothing I say is likely to have any consequence (at least I hope not) because I am not of any consequence. However, that isn't usually a luxury that is available to people who represent a tag, and your disdain for the way larger tags play the game isn't really helping you much in this instance.

Hawkeye:
This game thrives off of wars and bitterness and bad feelings. Those aren't the problems themselves, they're part of the charm of the game and can provide a lot of good, positive motivation. The problem is that the game has become less about becoming the best alliance and proving that you're the best alliance but about grinding the other side into dust because it is more likely you can make an opponent quit than you can grow and improve your own alliance.

Nothing changes without the ability for alliances to be ambitious, which may honestly not really be here at the moment.

iccyh

I am glad you enjoyed your stint in leadership. :)

I have always been in favour of the main aim of the EWPP and posted to say so.

I am against the Pact trying to tell others, well OMA really, what it can and can't do. OMA will war whomsoever it wishes and whenever it wishes. As it is doing.

I do not ask for OMA to be protected by the Pact. OMA is not a signatory and is afforded no rights whatsoever by the Pact.

The people afforded rights and obligations by the Pact are the signatory alliances. And it is only if they live up to their obligations that the Pact can hope to work.

Evo does not live up to its Pact obligations. It has supported its member, the Tittyman, 100%. That he has committed an act of war and put them in breach of the Pact is of no concern to them.

The other signatories could not give a fig for their obligations. Plainly they will pick and choose what breaches of the Pact they will choose to act on and which they will choose totally to ignore.

This time round it is just a small clan involved and quite a trivial act of war. Next time, though, it will be one or other of the signatories, or more likely an allied group of them, who judge that a breach will not have sufficiently bad consequences to put them off early warring in earnest.

It is not really any particular business of mine, but if the signatories want the pact to work they would do well to demonstrate that they intend to honour their own obligations under it and to insist on their right that the other signatories do likewise.

Furious you are quite the character and very entertaining even if you are the enemy in my eyes. So dont change, even though I may or may not agree with you. You are prolly correct though about my booky, they did look bit shady to be honest.

Iccyh, first of all I am not Hawkeye, you got the wrong person.
Yes you are prolly also correct, as I am sure there are many reasons why some leave. Definitely yes that part of the charm for a warring game is (shock horror) to have wars and bad feelings IF done well and they are fought for good reasons. What one deems a good reason will ofc vary, but I see a lot of small things that imho point to a lot of needless wars or made up excuses just to war, which is fine I guess if also done well. Just one small example are sometimes the lack of even a declare post, among lots of other small things that all make up a whole. I can only speak mostly based on what I have seen and felt, but it is indeed sad if some clans/alliances are more about grinding the other side into dust, which is all for the wrong reasons of warring.

Any rate I still feel that another positive next step is to see if all the major clan leaders can work on a negotiated peace time to try and clean the slate. Lets move on, get some new bitterness and bad feelings to war about later.

You're an annoying spam tag..

That is all

Hawkster:
My apologies for the mistake regarding your name, there really isn't any excuse for that.
I don't care in the slightest how dirty or incivil wars get so long as the aim of the war is positive, like "I am doing this to prove we are better than you" rather than negative, like "I am doing this to drive you out of the game". Blindsiding an opponent is a great way to ensure you win and demonstrate your superiority, and the bad taste it leaves in your opponent's mouth is a great way to ensure they do their best to get you back in the future. That's the kind of thing that drives competition, but I'm not sure competition is the aim for much of anything when it comes to war now.

Furious:
I mean no offense by this, but the simple truth here is that you and OMA are only slightly more consequential than I am, and everyone knows that. OMA is not involved in the politics that drove the pact and your desire to do your own thing cements that. Accordingly, you are not a consideration for the signatories of the pact. I'm sure that if you were willing to involve yourself in alliance politics and attempt to generate some goodwill with the larger tags rather than being contrarian, the response would be different.

If you want to be a consideration, you have to be consequential. So long as you insist on being independent of everything else that happens on the server, you won't be.

Get away with you, Militant, you'll join us in the end, you know you will. Some of those spies of yours visit so often they feel right at home with us already.

We could do with a Gay Pride march or two to liven things up. You would be just the guy to organise one for us. :)

On a completely unrelated note, I'm sort of disappointed and bothered by the way some terms are being used now. A "spam tag" is now any new tag, and not one that sends out its tag password in recruitment message. "Bottomfeeding" is now any kind of landgrabbing on untagged countries or smaller tags, and isn't a reference to countries attempting to make the maximum number of attacks per day at minimal readiness loss while carrying the least amount of military possible. I'm sure there's more.

The spam tag thing especially bothers me because it suggests the game has become more insular, as new people are completely dismissed and ignored instead of being engaged with. Even "farmland" would be better than "spam tag", but it seems today's alliances aren't even ambitious enough to make that true.

It's just an insult, iccyh (spam tag I mean).

Not sure why it was used in the EWPP. Lack of another term I suppose. "A clan not thought significant enough for anybody to take any notice of" is quite a mouthful.

Sure, but that they pick "spam tag" rather than "farmland" is telling. They're both insulting, but one suggests ambition while the other suggests apathy.

Furious does have a valid point. You guys wanted this pact but won't afford him same protection? You view him as a "spam" tag and therefore not a true tag worthy of protection from the very pact you worked hard to implement? Is the EWPP a joke pact or a real one in which you are willing to enforce even if it is a "friend" of yours? Is the EWPP like NATO i.e. when real fluff breaks out they disappear?

Is the EWPP just for signed partners or for the benefit of the entire server? I can't say that I've ever read it. Whoever wrote it needs a TLDR version.

Furious approached LaF and talked to us about some grabs so what did we do? Gave him a 1 week DNH and settled it. What did Evo do just curious?

Requiem that is not quite right. OMA took some of its retals against your guy but gave up the others in exchange for, not a one week DNH, but a DNH expiring when our war with STONES ends.

Evo can speak for itself about what its attitude is.

That's a lot of assumptions in your post there, Requiem. And that's a horrible analogy, too.

You're such a tool. Posts like this are why you will never be taken seriously and OMA has no future.

This pact, as has been stated in the actual pact thread multiple times, was basically aimed at the big (warring) alliances to prevent what hawkster was talking about(ie the boring ass war we had last set). The decision was to cover all legit alliances because of fears that loopholes would be abused. OMA is not part of this pact because they are not a legit alliance. Maybe if they get some tag protection and start acting like adults with regards to FA matters, then people will stop looking at them as a spam tag.

Req, if you'd like my response/ongoing discussion with furious, I'll send you logs and you can see for yourself.

Also Iccyh, I don't think you were around when fazer/undertaker/outlaw started their revolving new fail tag each set. I could point out a few posts about it, but basically it was the same 'alliance' under a new tag each and every set, and each time the leader(who liked to changed his name a lot) would whine about being picked on on AT, while basically ignoring everyone's advice on how to NOT be a spam tag.

So yeah, it's not the same as spam tags in the past, but they're still spam tags.

tella: there is edit button. just fyi.

Tella ela ela eh eh eh tells it how it is.....well....most of the time, I like OMA, death to STONES!!!!!

I know Marshal. Call it stream of consciousness I guess.

I farmed xSx harder than anyone (except maybe braden) last 'set.

Well STONES are doing their best to wipe us out telarian but we are at least holding our own:

OMA hits 923, kills 1

STONES hits 607, kills 1

We had the FS so we are not really outhitting them 3:2.

They are also hamperred by opportunistic netters but now Rage is policing for them we hope that will stop.

As for tag protection, well we have so far failed to retal your guy's hits which I set out above but otherwise we have not yet failed to retal any other hit on us (save accidents sorted out in friendly fashion by payment of reps). Not sure how much notice is taken of that by the predators but we are proud of it. :)

I already told you how to stop people from farming you while you focus on Stones. Instead of listening to my advice, you've been trying to threaten to have Evo killed by the other signatories of this pact(despite the fact that you aren't part of it), telling me that my offer of reps isn't acceptable(first by saying that the amount I offered didn't match what the pact says, which was false, and then by saying that I should pay you for the ghost acres my member gained), and posting/whining on AT instead of having a rational conversation with me.

Just ask someone to police for you and you don't have to worry about tag protection...DERP!

Does that matter ? The pact states

"This resolution is enforcable by every signed member against all alliances in game, regardless of signing."


But yeah, I don't understand why you don't just do this, it's what any real alliance would do.

I believe you, braden is a dirty rotten land whore ;-)

OMA is a spam tag. If they start acting like a real alliance that actually wants to stick around for a while, people will treat them as such and they will be covered by the pact. Otherwise, they'd have already been killed by all the signatories for FSing Stones...

Furious can't have it both ways. Either OMA has nothing to do with the pact(which is the reality), or they do(in which case we should have killed them already).

I checked the news from last reset. braden hit them more, but I suspect I got more land.

The Pact contains this provision

-If a signatory of this resolution believes a country or spam tag (definition below) is going to suicide on their or another alliance, they are allowed to declare their suspicion on AT up to 24 hours after a pre-emptive EAoW against the suspected suicider.

If telarion cares to look at the OMA and STONES thread he will see that is what OMA did.

We are not signatories to the Pact but I find the idea that we cannot act to defend ourselves against people filling our in game boxes with threats silly.

If Stones is a spamtag, then OMA is also a spamtag, and your point is moot.

tellarion you show an extraordinary lack of understanding of the Pact that you tell me you helped to draft.

STONES is a "spam tag" as you people insultingly decided to call them because it did not exist last set and it does not have 10 members. OMA did exist last set.

This has all been discussed on AT before, you know. If you can't manage to take in the provisions for yourself you could fill yourself in on them that way.

Anyway I have posted enough in this thread. Too much no doubt. So I will stay out of it now.

I thought there was very little assumptions, but many questions?




Naw I don't care about your logs. I was playing a little bit of devils advocate there. One thing that is interesting to me is who gets to define "legit alliances". That is an ambiguous term, shrugs.

I have no idea who Furious is and he may indeed be a non-legit alliance but these are things that should be talked about before you run into any grey areas.

is there a tl;dr version for this thread

Executive summary (for DStone Rocks and others with short to disappearing attention span).

EWPP rocks

Bookies are shady characters

telarion is a wuss

OMA/STONES are spam clans

Hawkster cares; iccyh doesn't (but doesn't count he says 'cause he's not a leader).

You left out couple very important bits of information....

braden is a dirty rotten grab whore, iccyh is a dirty rotten land whore.

Neither of the tags are spam tags. No such a thing. Just because someone has their nose stuffed so far up their ass, that they cant even follow their own stupid anti-war / fluff pact is no reason to cast disparaging labels on them.

Even the words of yalls own stupid, idiotic, anal retentive wuss pact, aren't being followed.

So all the pact is, is a farce piece of fluff written up by people that cant handle warring. The game was built on warring. Hence jets,tanks,turrets,troops. Hrmmmmm that is military right??? People aren't leaving or not coming around because of ingame wars. It the people that are turning Earth into their own little playground. Full of the rules that protect worthless people tht cant win on a level playing field , they have to implement rules to circumvent original game rules. ie: landgrabbing mainly.

Used to b you made a landgrab, the country attacked had 72 hours to make a retal, a single retal, not land for land stupidity. Its the stupidest thing you all have thought of, other than your stupid no war pact. Just because folks couldn't b good enuff for a solid retal, they had to implement land:land stupidity. That is a fact.

Why even landgrab than. You cant get ahead, (that is a fact) you cant have a better country than someone, because if you take advantage of your countries superiority you are screwed cause some pansy ass, cant build a proper country. (that is a fact) Same thing with yalls "topfeed fluff". Aint no such thing as a topfeed. (that is a fact) EACH AND EVERY LANDGRAB IS COUNTRY "A" vs. COUNTRY "B". Not which country fa is better at screwing the poor person that made a better country and attacked a landfat, weak ass sorry ass, no defense country. (that is a fact) Build your fat ass landfat, no defense countries better. Don't penalize the person who built a better one, because you cant hang.

This is one of the major reasons people aren't playing anymore. It aint the fighting, Christ its a fighting game for heavens sake. What part of this is hard to understand. (that is a fact)

Oh, you self pompous little fluffes that come on here on too trash my post. Screw you. You people think your way of making it so quality players cant play anymore, is so great, it aint. Trash away. You people will never learn until this game is completely dead. Enjoy your anal retentive selves when yall completely destroy the game. (that is a fact)

PS there isn't a damn thing in this post that isn't fact. Im just one of the very few with nuts enuff to say it. Go screw your self-serving selves.

Flame away fluffes. (that is a fact)

That reads like a lot of bitterness that has next to no basis in reality, yearning for a past that never actually existed. I'd maybe try a reply with some actual substance if I thought it'd accomplish anything, but you're looking for a fight and not any kind of a discussion.

That's kind of poetic, Home Turf. Love the "(that is a fact)" refrain.

Sorry to appear again in this thread but I wanted to report the outcome of my taking up #311's act of war.

MD have put me firmly in my place saying, as tellarian has throughout assured me to be the case, that the signatory clans are not in the slightest interested; that the 5-8 hits by #311 are matters to be dealt with by retal policies not the EWPP; and that OMA should stop manipulating the Pact.

Whether that shows the Pact to be working or failing to work I don't know. I am still pretty sure Hawkster's booky will say the latter. Sorry Hawkster. :(

You can't get ahead? Obviously you have no conception or working knowledge of what landtrading even is. Why the hell would people just hit back and forth for 100% l:l if nobody gained at all?

Furious, the moment you start acting like a real alliance is the moment people start treating you like one. Danger and Imag have been tiny(<10 countries) for a loooong time, and people don't mess with them. There's a reason for this.

SoL offers any new tag protection, if they request it, as we did with OMA. If a new tag play respectfully it gets extended. If they try to ride the thin line of what is allowed by say, playing the 70% game, red flags go off and channces of renewal is revoked. By this '70% game' i mean retalling for 60-69% of land then taking another hit to abide by the 1:1 or 70% rule.

Larger tags may do this, but they have the influence to let it slide, hit similarly or use FAs to make a statement. As a newer tag with very few members, trying to use rules to their advantage is not the best way to make a name for themselves, unless that name is trouble.

The term Spam tag was perhaps misused.... established in a time when new tags formed every set and 'spammed' people with join messages. In this case it seems it may have been a misnomer. However it still stands, in my opinion, in the definition stated in the EWPP. STONES is not an established tag and neither is OMA. After this set, I would hope that OMA would strive to exist without causing problems as well as people giving OMA a chance to start up and establish themselves.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I'm not here to argue, so when I'm trolled, don't expect a reply ;) And yes, both STONES and OMA, regardless of their tag classification was given DNH by SoL for what it's worth...

Evo has had a similar policy as well. If people ask me for a dnh, I generally give it to them as a gesture of goodwill. Unfortunately for OMA, they did not(even after all the 'drama' here) ask for a dnh at all, and furious completely ignored my suggestion to get police.

Again, for the record, I asked what Furious wanted for the hits, he said reps. I offered to send reps, but apparently he didn't agree with the amount(which I came up with using the formula in the pact, and which at least two other FAs from other alliances said was fair), and has now decided to reject the offer of reps, even though it was his suggestion in the first place. I can be a fluff sometimes, but I have legitimately not been trying to screw him over with this one...

+1

DEATH TO OMA! :P

Home Turf - While I agree with a lot if not most of what all you say (spam tags, LG's, L:L retals, topfeeds, etc), just because you state it along with "that is a fact" does not make it a fact.

So even though I concur with the main intent of what you said, sadly I agree with Iccyh more as you make it all sound bitter with hardly no basis in reality. The negativity in all that speech of yours does no good for the server and AT at all. It makes it kind of hard to argue some of these points when people like you have talked prior so bitterly and negative about some of these same issues.

Home Turf = helltard

That's all you people need to know.

It's a rap (that is a fact).

The Earth sucks rap (now that's another).

Ghost acres

However if you actually read what Home Turf posted (yea I know it was difficult), they were suggesting using the age old standard of 1:1, 3:2, progressive retals etc instead of the way most major clans policies are now of x% L:L. Trust me, if you choose your targets wisely, 1:1 LG and retals can definitely result in gaining land for the initial LG'er or for the retal'er if not. Those type of retal policies required a lot more skill in gaining land and/or picking the right country to do the retal, which meant teamwork for non-solo servers.

I find the whole Ghost Acres dull and boring, but I find the 130% L:L even more so. How does anyone gain land and so why would anyone do a LG with 130% L:L retal?

Please explain to me (I am a simpleton moron apparently), how Land Grabbing can work with x% L:L retal policies that are mostly in place currently. Because sorry I do not see how anyone can gain with 130% L:L retal in place, and so the only thing I can see is that this is to prevent LG's being done in the first place, which means defeating the whole purpose of the game or means you pick on and farm the little guys (the noobs and small clans). The end result which means you drive away any new potential players to the game.

I know I ranted. I tend to do that from time to time. Its just so aggravating seeing a good game getting "more" trashed by stupid and I mean stupid pacts, and policies. If people could just suck it up when they get LGd and do retals properly, they wouldn't b whining like little biatches all the time.


have a swirve day

It was a splendid rant, HT.

Look, guys. These policies. All they are is policies.

Now it is a bit irksome to do your hit on some hugely FAT and under-defended country and then have someone try to bully you about it. But when the fat cat clan tells you they are going to crucify your countryv as a result tell them to F off and crucify them right back. We are mostly grown ups here. We dealt with the bully boys in the school yard many many years ago. They hardly worry us now.

And when they say you are an irreverent suicider unfit to be seen in polite society blow the biggest raspberry you can manage.

A policy is just the way that a clan hopes to get its own way. They also provide a framework for negotiation. But they are not Holy Writ.

A bad policy, when challenged, will fail. Not without resolution, effort and fun. But fail it will. :)

So challenge them. :)

Have some fun.

And cry with Wallace, FREEDOM!!

Furious,,,

how many times do we have to tell you that OMA is a spam tag (maybe poor word choice, but whatever) and nothing more. YOU are not an established alliance, you run around talking sh*t and pissing everyone off.

Contact everyone you want, the terms of the pact are clear. OMA is not included. The way you approach us, speak to people with all of your priviledge, you are going about things all wrong.

Please stop harassing us. You are not included in the terms, plain and simple.

That is that.